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Thread: Class Drop - 04/10/17

  1. #21
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    The point that is missing is the aa continued and expanded the shrinking of envoy, mia, lax, half of ord flying has gone to non wholly owned and now that they decimated envoy they want over the next 2 to 3 years to retake what was given up.

    That's the summary of my understanding of dacuj statement.

    As a pilot group, get ready to be screwed by these negotiations. You don't get nothing for free unless mgt is In a corner, as don't forget, aa will run to psa before signing any agreement with envoy to see if they can get the same for less.

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    Got first hand from Union MEC that's what they being Parker et al... Want. Break you down and build you up the way we want. Problem is, to get the airline where they want it in a few years would take a hiring mass the likes of Delta and United. Last I checked we are little backed up in training. RiÁ said a few months ago he wouldn't flow less than 30. Now it's min flow numbers as allowed by the contract. The quality of life will get worse and the flow will start to reduce after the 2011 hires. If their plans of growth are reality. Be wary of this place. Taking from two union guys one MEC one negotiating team. Get your time and get the F out of year. JL negotiating member is now set to flow in first PP class. Should say something when the Senior guys are bailing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Seems really tough to grow. If they plan to divest entirely of CRJ's and scope limits them on 175's, all that's left is 140/145's which have a limited shelf life and they are dumping the 145's too (keep 50 until they are toast ?). As they move out 145's and temporarily replace some of those with 140's it sounds more like burning the furniture to heat the house. Unless some big Hail Mary is in the works, it sounds more like controlled contraction to a smaller airline (eventually all E1 175's) then is now or possibly consolidation with (or acquisition by) another carrier which would indicate the possibility of diluted slower flow.

    In the interim I agree they will flow at minimum required rate, at least until their viability is threatened and then I think all bets are off.
    Blah blah blah, SOS, blah blah blah. You are like a broken record. Envoy flow is gonna fail. Who in their right mind would come here. Envoy sucks. Management sucks. Blah blah blah. Be nice if you would just beat it off these forums and enjoy your last 18 months in the right seat of that 80. You're old man. You got trapped in the lost decade and don't have near the opportunity we have now. It's gotta stick in your craw pretty bad that somebody that's 23 can get hired here and be at AA by 29. Either that or you are just psycho. I lean toward the latter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Blah blah blah, SOS, blah blah blah. You are like a broken record. Envoy flow is gonna fail. Who in their right mind would come here. Envoy sucks. Management sucks. Blah blah blah. Be nice if you would just beat it off these forums and enjoy your last 18 months in the right seat of that 80. You're old man. You got trapped in the lost decade and don't have near the opportunity we have now. It's gotta stick in your craw pretty bad that somebody that's 23 can get hired here and be at AA by 29. Either that or you are just psycho. I lean toward the latter.
    Pot meet kettle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Currently, Section 15 is open at the negotiating table. The satellite base LOA is dead and the company seemingly wants to open multiple permanent bases over the next 2-3 years, but they want fewer training cycles hence the negotiations.
    Envoy ALPA and management are in open negotiations to make contract alterations ? Can anyone verify the pilot group has been informed their negotiating committee is in active negotiations and if so, have the pilots been asked for input on desires ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    In the end, you can gather that AAG wants to position Envoy, PSA and PDT to take up the slack to non WO contract carriers. Everyone is aware that the staffing issue is really going to hit hard in the next couple of years and if the negotiations are successful, it's likely that multiple bases would open up and that Envoy would look like a completely different airline in 3 years. Like I said, take a look a 2 or 3 old legacy AA bases and a couple of Air Wisky bases and there you have it.[/FONT][/COLOR]
    If you truly believe your first sentence above, then that would lend credence to the future being three equal sized carriers all with multiple bases as it's pointless to have all their eggs in one carriers basket. It would also increase the odds of consolidation in the future. Both a growing PSA and Piedmont mean more flow slots for their pilots and a slowly shrinking Envoy means less for Envoy pilots and consolidation means sharing flow slots as a result of seniority integration. The "completely different" Envoy very well may be a smaller Envoy or an Envoy dissolved into the other WO's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Blah blah blah, SOS, blah blah blah. You are like a broken record. Envoy flow is gonna fail. Who in their right mind would come here. Envoy sucks. Management sucks. Blah blah blah. Be nice if you would just beat it off these forums and enjoy your last 18 months in the right seat of that 80. You're old man. You got trapped in the lost decade and don't have near the opportunity we have now. It's gotta stick in your craw pretty bad that somebody that's 23 can get hired here and be at AA by 29. Either that or you are just psycho. I lean toward the latter.
    I'm sorry, did you say something ?

    All I hear from you anymore is the same cyber belching and farting I've heard since you let off your first smoke plume.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Currently, Section 15 is open at the negotiating table. The satellite base LOA is dead and the company seemingly wants to open multiple permanent bases over the next 2-3 years, but they want fewer training cycles hence the negotiations.

    In the end, you can gather that AAG wants to position Envoy, PSA and PDT to take up the slack to non WO contract carriers. Everyone is aware that the staffing issue is really going to hit hard in the next couple of years and if the negotiations are successful, it's likely that multiple bases would open up and that Envoy would look like a completely different airline in 3 years. Like I said, take a look a 2 or 3 old legacy AA bases and a couple of Air Wisky bases and there you have it.
    Thanks Dacuj,

    You quoted me but you didn't answer any of my questions. Would you please look at questions 1-4 and answer them. Thanks

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    my source ( wont say whom ) had told me two weeks ago of negotiations for satellite bases, negotiation for changes to our contract to reduce training cost, to me this means awarding out of seniority, reducing or removing the withholding pay and restricting base transfers. for all of this we may get 3 bases in the next 3 years if envoy is still here after all the shrinking, but we have flow.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    my source ( wont say whom ) had told me two weeks ago of negotiations for satellite bases, negotiation for changes to our contract to reduce training cost, to me this means awarding out of seniority, reducing or removing the withholding pay and restricting base transfers. for all of this we may get 3 bases in the next 3 years if envoy is still here after all the shrinking, but we have flow.
    I voted no many times before, and I'll happily do it again. Every single point you mentioned is a nonstarter. Nope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    my source ( wont say whom ) had told me two weeks ago of negotiations for satellite bases, negotiation for changes to our contract to reduce training cost, to me this means awarding out of seniority, reducing or removing the withholding pay and restricting base transfers. for all of this we may get 3 bases in the next 3 years if envoy is still here after all the shrinking, but we have flow.
    Hopefully, this has been fully disclosed to the pilot group. If not, why not ? In the past, various MEC's have negotiated marginal deals (at best) and then handed the pilots a **** sandwich packaged as something good for them that fell way, way short. Remember, your MEC and NC want to flow and want the fastest flow for themselves, so they are likely predisposed to repeating the past.

    Good luck.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Basil View Post
    I voted no many times before, and I'll happily do it again. Every single point you mentioned is a nonstarter. Nope.
    In the past, pilots didn't always get to vote, only give their opinions to their reps which was meaningless when the deal was all but done. Personally, I think the majority of your ALPA reps (most of whom are all desperate to flow themselves) will give the farm away if it might grease their ride to AA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Currently, Section 15 is open at the negotiating table. The satellite base LOA is dead and the company seemingly wants to open multiple permanent bases over the next 2-3 years, but they want fewer training cycles hence the negotiations.

    In the end, you can gather that AAG wants to position Envoy, PSA and PDT to take up the slack to non WO contract carriers. Everyone is aware that the staffing issue is really going to hit hard in the next couple of years and if the negotiations are successful, it's likely that multiple bases would open up and that Envoy would look like a completely different airline in 3 years. Like I said, take a look a 2 or 3 old legacy AA bases and a couple of Air Wisky bases and there you have it.
    What good are multiple new bases if nobody can transfer there because of the new restrictions to lower training costs?

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