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Thread: Envoy Regrets

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    Quote Originally Posted by No Tuna In Cockpit View Post
    I personally know of 4 people who left for LCCs (3 FOs and 1 CA) and they are all pretty happy. In fact, one of them already went to United. He says that the Airbus type rating helped him land the job.
    I don't know anyone who left for LCCs who regret leaving. I know 1 person, hired in 06, who went to Middle East in 07-08, then to Asia, and is now back on property as of last November.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vne View Post
    Sssssssssshhhh! I wanted to hear his convoluted reasoning on how this would benefit the current pilot group. I was mostly expecting something along the lines of "More captains! More flying! More aircraft! They'll take your place in line to Flow flow flow!" You've taken away what could have been at least 4 pages of amusement. Apologize!
    Sorry. Don't worry he'll continue. Delusional behavior is something most can't control. Could be why he is in recruitment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    I think you may have misunderstood what I meant and I'm fully aware of the lack of benefits that will be carried over if you are outside the 824.

    I also think it's complete BS that someone who was hired when they were 30, puts 14 years on eaglevoy property before he flows has to wait until he's 60 to see max vacation. Loses a full year+ of 401k contributions. Has to work an extra 5 years before he has points to retire, etc.
    while i agree with your position, my point is AA give back first what we all had before parker came and took away from all AMR employess then i will consider. But i get everything back AAG took away since 2013 first.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    We had 1 175 check airrman leave for Emirates. Another left for Atlas. Another has changed his flow mindset to go as a PP when he could have been a numbered guy. Two other senior 175 organizers have left,. Clearly because they loved the quality of life here. Another check airrman is now at FedEx. We should call them all and. Them they are not allowed back. Infact just hang up on them now. No need for their assigning behavior flying the premier regional jet.

    ......

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    while i agree with your position, my point is AA give back first what we all had before parker came and took away from all AMR employess then i will consider. But i get everything back AAG took away since 2013 first.
    You and I are on the same page.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    I think they should be allowed to come back with their company seniority, time of service for vacation accrual, 401k matching, etc. but they should be put at the bottom of the pilot seniority list.

    My reason for this is that it would also allow us to maintain company years of service when we flow.
    Worked for first officer Winkler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF View Post
    Worked for first officer Winkler.
    I think he is technically an AA pilot who is here on Special Assignment. But point taken

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    Leave it to a jagbag who flies his desk chair all day to start an idiotic thread like this. (face palm)

    So I can quit, go work at Home Depot for the next year, be home every night, be appreciated by my employer, get holidays off, get better health care, get one of those cool aprons complete with a marker to write my name on it, and get rehired just in time to flow? Gee Gomer, where do I sign?

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    ..
    Last edited by Treadstone; 03-15-2017 at 08:06 PM.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    I think they should be allowed to come back with their company seniority, time of service for vacation accrual, 401k matching, etc. but they should be put at the bottom of the pilot seniority list.

    My reason for this is that it would also allow us to maintain company years of service when we flow.
    Because past precedent will always be honored by mgmt....you are delusional...this is the worst idea yet...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    I don't know anyone who left for LCCs who regret leaving. I know 1 person, hired in 06, who went to Middle East in 07-08, then to Asia, and is now back on property as of last November.
    It's laughable to suggest throngs of former Envoy pilots now at LCC's are banging on the glass at the Envoy training center like Benjamin Braddock at the church in The Graduate begging to get in. There may be an outlier or two as you describe, but certainly not anywhere near enough to make return with seniority an issue and who at those carriers would come back to Envoy at the back of the Envoy list unless they were a drooling imbecile ?

    He's just thowing mud at the wall in the hope one speck will stick.

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    Not you the wind bag that started this thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I don't think it's any issue. VERY few (if any) will want to come back and the seniority jump issue is not going to happen. I've bumped into former Envoy pilots in the past who are at both Spirit and Jet Blue and found them to be very happy with where they are vs. where they were. The Spirit guys are now Airbus captains and I believe Jet Blues E-190 rate is better then AA's. Perhaps those at either of these carriers can chime in as to how their fellow former Envoyers are doing for a better vibe ?
    What you mention here about guys being happy at Spirit or Jetblue makes me think of how the bad things pre bankruptcy are still with us, i.e: toxic culture, nasty gate agents, management beat downs and the pitting of employee groups against each other. Post bankruptcy we have a wholly cheapened American from the aesthetics side with new and crappy uniforms, cheap looking paint job, the new logos and gate signs that look like they were screen printed at Joe's Signs and a 1960's computer system that is far, far behind the curve.

    And then we have true QOL and pay items that affect Envoy directly such as more flying farmed out with Envoy taking a true backseat to any of the better flying available giving us lousy schedules, even more oppressive management, contract literally ripped to shreds with management using it essentially as toilet paper, a QOL so bad making it nearly impossible to commute, MA's handed out like candy for things such as true fatigue. Tell me on that specifically how does Envoy get around the FAA? They preach the whole safety first and it's your responsibility to call fatigued in ground school and then pressure you and get the CP involved when you do call FTG issuing an automatic MA.

    I honestly don't believe that the flow is going to continue at the numbers specified in the contract. Envoy has no qualms with violating it when necessary. We are already at critical staffing and max junior assignments even with 70 new hires each month. How are they going to let 25 or 30 go each month from here on out?

    Even if you do get lucky and flow, essentially it's like flowing from Dollar General to Walmart. Delta is Saks Fifth Avenue and United is Nordstrom's in this comparison. Heck, Jetblue is even on par with Bloomingdale's. Sure, things are a bit better than at Envoy such as pay and maybe a slightly better schedule. But you'll still exist in the poisoned atmosphere that is the "new" American.

    Case in point, when I've jumpseated on Spirit, I get far, far better treatment than any Envoy or AA gate agent. I'm polite as I am to Envoy/AA agents and I get talked to like a human being. Unlike here where I have either been ignored completely or gotten comments like: "Yes, I'm busy what do you need?" "You're not getting on this flight, it's oversold by 30 and I don't have time right now."

    Nope, if I get hired elsewhere I won't have a single regret. Unlike these bozos such as dacuj and others on APC painting this rosy picture that Envoy is the greatest.
    Last edited by PREVEMB; 03-21-2017 at 07:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PREVEMB View Post
    What you mention here about guys being happy at Spirit or Jetblue makes me think of how the bad things pre bankruptcy are still with us, i.e: toxic culture, nasty gate agents, management beat downs and the pitting of employee groups against each other. Post bankruptcy we have a wholly cheapened American from the aesthetics side with new and crappy uniforms, cheap looking paint job, the new logos and gate signs that look like they were screen printed at Joe's Signs and a 1960's computer system that is far, far behind the curve.

    And then we have true QOL and pay items that affect Envoy directly such as more flying farmed out with Envoy taking a true backseat to any of the better flying available giving us lousy schedules, even more oppressive management, contract literally ripped to shreds with management using it essentially as toilet paper, a QOL so bad making it nearly impossible to commute, MA's handed out like candy for things such as true fatigue. Tell me on that specifically how does Envoy get around the FAA? They preach the whole safety first and it's your responsibility to call fatigued in ground school and then pressure you and get the CP involved when you do call FTG issuing an automatic MA.

    I honestly don't believe that the flow is going to continue at the numbers specified in the contract. Envoy has no qualms with violating it when necessary. We are already at critical staffing and max junior assignments even with 70 new hires each month. How are they going to let 25 or 30 go each month from here on out?

    Even if you do get lucky and flow, essentially it's like flowing from Dollar General to Walmart. Delta is Saks Fifth Avenue and United is Nordstrom's in this comparison. Heck, Jetblue is even on par with Bloomingdale's. Sure, things are a bit better than at Envoy such as pay and maybe a slightly better schedule. But you'll still exist in the poisoned atmosphere that is the "new" American.

    Case in point, when I've jumpseated on Spirit, I get far, far better treatment than any Envoy or AA gate agent. I'm polite as I am to Envoy/AA agents and I get talked to like a human being. Unlike here where I have either been ignored completely or gotten comments like: "Yes, I'm busy what do you need?" "You're not getting on this flight, it's oversold by 30 and I don't have time right now."

    Nope, if I get hired elsewhere I won't have a single regret. Unlike these bozos such as dacuj and others on APC painting this rosy picture that Envoy is the greatest.
    I think you're looking at sobering reality vs. Pollyanna fantasy which while healthy is also disheartening. But, it's necessary IMO to ensure your priorities are correctly aligned for maximum opportunity to get as far as possible in your career. Sure, all carriers have issues and none are perfect with various trade offs, but most are grouped all together while it seems anything attached to AAG exists in its own separate orbit away from the solar system all other carriers exist in. It's a mystery why it's always been that way as AMR or AAG, old management or new or old paint/uniforms or new, some type of psychological disease runs through it. AA is now not much of an escape from Envoy as conditions for pilots are worse then they have ever been and a shadow of what they used to be and it has way more to do with it then money. If and when you get there, there will be a period of intoxication (AKA Pollyanna fantasy), but when that wears off (and it will), you'll be back to sobering reality realizing you're still in many ways back at Envoy as they both still exist in that separate solar system from the rest of the industry.

    I think it's only a matter of time before history repeats itself for AA as its choice of remaining off from all the others and how all its entities treat their people only means it can only eventually come back around to where it was before, which is nowhere healthy or good. It's too bad really, as it had so much potential.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 03-21-2017 at 08:05 AM.

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    One of the first things parker and company did when they arrived was to vacate amr's policy of inter company transfer. Meaning, after the 824 is done, ALL flow here on after you are essentially a new hire. No time served is given for your service here. Nice huh?

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    Quote Originally Posted by downwind View Post
    One of the first things parker and company did when they arrived was to vacate amr's policy of inter company transfer. Meaning, after the 824 is done, ALL flow here on after you are essentially a new hire. No time served is given for your service here. Nice huh?
    Yeah, we carry with us pretty much nothing to AA. The time at eagle/envoy DOES count towards the required company time to retire with flight benefits.

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    Quote Originally Posted by downwind View Post
    One of the first things parker and company did when they arrived was to vacate amr's policy of inter company transfer. Meaning, after the 824 is done, ALL flow here on after you are essentially a new hire. No time served is given for your service here. Nice huh?
    The silver lining in this (if there is such a thing) is that they will soon have blessed a pilot who flows to AA with virtually no investment there and so continuing to update their resumes at other, more financially lucrative carriers with a whole different attitude towards their employees and especially pilots should then be a no-brainer. This is especially true considering Boeing or Airbus experience added to such resume. Considering the philosophies they have about their pilots which have been repeatedly validated time and again over the last several years at both carriers (and the other WO's for that matter), it is virtually certain both AA and Envoy pilots will remain well behind their peers in both compensation and treatment in the future. Well behind. Additionally, AAG's mountain of debt and multiple future concerns have very real potential to severely impact AA growth making retirement attrition a wildcard meaning AA is likely to be also dead last in job security in addition to compensation and treatment. While no one can predict the future with certainty, I think it would be a mistake to think one of AA's benefits over others is retirements and thus advancement. Those components hinge on a healthy, competitive carrier and AA appears morphing back into its old bad habits quickly and has especially tossed its pilots aside with little concern for doing so. There is no loyalty (which is a measurement of value) left and as an example, investigate the differences between a Delta pilot who is unfortunate to go on disability vs. an AA pilot and you'll see a massive difference in what each of those two pilots faces going forward (potentially for the rest of their lives if the ability to hold a medical certificate is lost forever). One pilot truly has a reasonable safety net and the other is essentially set up to be thrown to the curb in fairly short order.

    There is a massive difference between being a pilot for either of those two carriers. One is truly a career legacy airline for pilots and the other is almost now a near-regional airline consolation prize. You shouldn't believe my opinions, but SHOULD investigate and get the facts for yourself when planning your career. You owe it to yourselves, because no one else is going to do it for you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdflyer View Post
    I think he is technically an AA pilot who is here on Special Assignment. But point taken
    Wrinkley has been flying right....probably getting ready to leave this dreadful place

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    He has a medical?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    He has a medical?
    Im surprised too...but yeah he has been picking up 175s

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