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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    You got dementia? Getting so old you can't remember what somebody said to you 5 minutes ago?

    THE FLOW IS CONTRACTUAL!

    There's not going to be any s l o w i n g of the flow. Got it now old timer?
    The company will keep and maintain an adequately staffed airline.

    That's contractual too.

    3 JM in one month. Max is two.
    That's contractual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    You got dementia? Getting so old you can't remember what somebody said to you 5 minutes ago?

    THE FLOW IS CONTRACTUAL!

    There's not going to be any s l o w i n g of the flow. Got it now old timer?
    We thought that in 2001. Then the lost decade. Fortunately Eagle was a decent place to ride that out. Then they decided to dismantle it.

    I've been told that quite a few of the "old timers" who stayed are now planning to flow, because of how bad it is there. Everybody from the top of the Envoy list to the bottom wants to leave. What does that say about working conditions?

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    So far 6 of the numbered guys are planning on going as a PP go. Must be an amazing company to work for

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    Envoy is an amazing company to work for, we just have to define what amazing is, is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 360DD View Post
    We thought that in 2001. Then the lost decade. Fortunately Eagle was a decent place to ride that out. Then they decided to dismantle it.

    I've been told that quite a few of the "old timers" who stayed are now planning to flow, because of how bad it is there. Everybody from the top of the Envoy list to the bottom wants to leave. What does that say about working conditions?
    This isn't 2001. And it isn't AMR anymore. In case you haven't noticed, regional airlines in general are tripping all over themselves to get new pilots lured into their carrier. Envoy has the greatest advantage here because of the large percentage of flows. Why do you think we are able to hire upwards of 70 each month? It would be airline suicide for Envoy to renege on the flow or even adjust it. Not going to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    This isn't 2001. And it isn't AMR anymore. In case you haven't noticed, regional airlines in general are tripping all over themselves to get new pilots lured into their carrier. Envoy has the greatest advantage here because of the large percentage of flows. Why do you think we are able to hire upwards of 70 each month? It would be airline suicide for Envoy to renege on the flow or even adjust it. Not going to happen.
    Envoy management doesn't run the AAG/WO show, they are simply a lower orbit that implements decisions and policy from the orbit above them. If AA stops or slows hiring (its fleet is shrinking as we speak and operational growth is forecast to be very small), Envoy complies. If AAG comes up with a methodology to further reduce what they see as too expensive mainline flying, they will and that will affect the flow. We don't want to even contemplate unforeseen potentially catastrophic geopolitical or global economic factors that could alter the aviation industry equation not unlike the Gulf war, 9/11, SARS, etc. As DD noted, in summer 2001, no one could have dreamed of 9/11 and even then Eagle pilots had AA seniority numbers as opposed to simple "contractual" promises now. In fact, hasn't Envoy ALPA even confirmed Envoy ALREADY will slow the flow to metered minimum rates in the future ?

    Like I said little smokey, you haven't yet cracked a history book, but one day you quite possibly WILL be a historical footnote your generation of Envoy pilots will tell the next in 10 years, who won't believe you then. You'll get there some day, but in the interim..............................baby steps !

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    This isn't 2001. And it isn't AMR anymore. In case you haven't noticed, regional airlines in general are tripping all over themselves to get new pilots lured into their carrier. Envoy has the greatest advantage here because of the large percentage of flows. Why do you think we are able to hire upwards of 70 each month? It would be airline suicide for Envoy to renege on the flow or even adjust it. Not going to happen.
    Ok. Let's put it like this. Envoy has the best flow in existence to any mainline. They also have an incredible bad record of treating their current employees badly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    This isn't 2001. And it isn't AMR anymore. In case you haven't noticed, regional airlines in general are tripping all over themselves to get new pilots lured into their carrier. Envoy has the greatest advantage here because of the large percentage of flows. Why do you think we are able to hire upwards of 70 each month? It would be airline suicide for Envoy to renege on the flow or even adjust it. Not going to happen.
    I'm not suggesting Envoy will stop the flow. I'm suggesting that a 9-11 type event cannot be predicted and AA could very well stop hiring due to unforeseen events. That's what happened in 2001. They went from hiring to furloughing 3,000 pilots practically overnight, thus the lost decade.

    Rather than belittling the "old timers", you might stop and listen for a minute.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF View Post
    Ok. Let's put it like this. Envoy has the best flow in existence to any mainline. They also have an incredible bad record of treating their current employees badly.
    Sounds good, but I think we also must acknowledge where that flow leads to place true value of the flow itself if some here are going to proclaim that the reason why Envoy shines above all other regionals. In regards to pilots, the treatment record you highlight at Envoy is simply one of being slightly less antagonistic at AA, but which is nonetheless toxic. This is confirmed by their pilots union and many of the pilots themselves. As far as compensation goes, Envoy's flow is to the #6 out of 6 on the "major" airlines left (3 legacy, 2 premier freight and 1 LCC), so that must be put into perspective as well. Soon, 1 or 2 other LCC's may very well pass virtually all pilot financial metrics at AA for equivalent aircraft type. AA is much better then Envoy, no doubt about it, but how does AA stack up against ITS competition in regards to the financial components pilots typically measure ?

    Obviously not very well, so while the flow is a good thing, it really seems to only lead to a higher level of disappointing marginality. Again, considering AA's back-breaking debt load, it also is arguably the most tenuous of final pilot career stops should some type of significant event put AA in a revenue crunch vs. its leaner competitors and among the most important financial components is job security itself. Just something to think about when weighing the real value of the flow IMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Sounds good, but I think we also must acknowledge where that flow leads to place true value of the flow itself if some here are going to proclaim that the reason why Envoy shines above all other regionals. In regards to pilots, the treatment record you highlight at Envoy is simply one of being slightly less antagonistic at AA, but which is nonetheless toxic. This is confirmed by their pilots union and many of the pilots themselves. As far as compensation goes, Envoy's flow is to the #6 out of 6 on the "major" airlines left (3 legacy, 2 premier freight and 1 LCC), so that must be put into perspective as well. Soon, 1 or 2 other LCC's may very well pass virtually all pilot financial metrics at AA for equivalent aircraft type. AA is much better then Envoy, no doubt about it, but how does AA stack up against ITS competition in regards to the financial components pilots typically measure ?

    Obviously not very well, so while the flow is a good thing, it really seems to only lead to a higher level of disappointing marginality. Again, considering AA's back-breaking debt load, it also is arguably the most tenuous of final pilot career stops should some type of significant event put AA in a revenue crunch vs. its leaner competitors and among the most important financial components is job security itself. Just something to think about when weighing the real value of the flow IMO.
    How long are Delta's and United's contract good for? I'm sure AA will have the highest pay in 2020 with their new contract, but how long will they be number 1 before the other guys leapfrog them? Doug has already indicated he won't match pay so I see AA being able to say they're the highest paid airline in the biz in 2020 for about 2 seconds before the other 2 react.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    How long are Delta's and United's contract good for? I'm sure AA will have the highest pay in 2020 with their new contract, but how long will they be number 1 before the other guys leapfrog them? Doug has already indicated he won't match pay so I see AA being able to say they're the highest paid airline in the biz in 2020 for about 2 seconds before the other 2 react.
    You mean pattern bargaining ? Impossible to answer how that will work out for AA pilots. The first questions I ask is how AA pilots will have the highest pay in 2020 even for two seconds ? What leverage does APA have to force Parker to offer anything ? Is Parker the type of person to play honorably and fairly or has history shown he will reneg on promises and short-change whenever possible ? Even if he does offer top pay, will he offer industry leading components that others have like profit-sharing, disability and calendar day ? Even if he does all that, will he demand givebacks in other areas to offset any industry leading components like scope concessions ?

    Personally, I don't see AA pilots getting much in any negotiations, certainly nothing nearing the others as a total package and likely the demands to offset them will be too onerous to accept like scope. If they do accept scope, it will be the newbies for the most part that get the shaft and yes, that's the future flows. AA pilots have a long history of disappointment and I don't see anything that will alter that unless Parker suddenly becomes a fluttering angel and what are the chances of that ? Future flows will be part of any such unfortunate reality watching the other 5 carriers pilots disappear into the financial mist ahead of them, but I do think there will be shiny jets to fly, so not all is bad. We know pilots love shiny jets and the shinier, the better......we just have to ask dacuj and smokey for proof of that.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 03-12-2017 at 03:55 PM.

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    Parker is betting on the w/o flows to capitulate, that will be about 30 to 40 percent by 2020. Envoy sucks but aa will be trying to beat that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    You mean pattern bargaining ? Impossible to answer how that will work out for AA pilots. The first questions I ask is how AA pilots will have the highest pay in 2020 even for two seconds ? What leverage does APA have to force Parker to offer anything ? Is Parker the type of person to play honorably and fairly or has history shown he will reneg on promises and short-change whenever possible ? Even if he does offer top pay, will he offer industry leading components that others have like profit-sharing, disability and calendar day ? Even if he does all that, will he demand givebacks in other areas to offset any industry leading components like scope concessions ?

    Personally, I don't see AA pilots getting much in any negotiations, certainly nothing nearing the others as a total package and likely the demands to offset them will be too onerous to accept like scope. If they do accept scope, it will be the newbies for the most part that get the shaft and yes, that's the future flows. AA pilots have a long history of disappointment and I don't see anything that will alter that unless Parker suddenly becomes a fluttering angel and what are the chances of that ? Future flows will be part of any such unfortunate reality watching the other 5 carriers pilots disappear into the financial mist ahead of them, but I do think there will be shiny jets to fly, so not all is bad. We know pilots love shiny jets and the shinier, the better......we just have to ask dacuj and smokey for proof of that.
    Oh hell no! I fully expect AA to continue to be industry lagging in the majority of areas. And yes, they may not even raise base pay to industry leading without major concessions in other areas, i.e. scope. And they most certainly won't have lucrative Delta type profit sharing. I have no doubt that UAL and Delta will continue to be ahead of AA until there are major leadership changes at the top level of US Air....I mean, AAG.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Parker is betting on the w/o flows to capitulate, that will be about 30 to 40 percent by 2020. Envoy sucks but aa will be trying to beat that.
    Did you get my email?

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    just checked, yes i did. thank you. now to play with the Ouija board.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    What's the Ouija say? My pyschic says good things will come to me this week. I can feel the positive energy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Parker is betting on the w/o flows to capitulate, that will be about 30 to 40 percent by 2020. Envoy sucks but aa will be trying to beat that.
    I think that's not all that bad a bet. Let's face it, are WO pilots (especially those at Envoy) standing up and aggressively defending their contract now ? I don't see that at all. Sure, there's grumbling, but for the most part capitulation and that's even with more onerous conditions and violations then at AA. It's not all their fault as they have an impotent union as bad as APA and the general rationalization among many is a "not much we can do" attitude. If the WO's are to get perhaps a little more then half of the next three years new-hire slots at AA, that would probably amount to no more then 1400 pilots or so and considering the 400 or so hired in the last couple of years, that would be about 1800 pilots out of 15,000, so I don't see anywhere near that percentage, so even if they did become the most militant faction, they are an extreme minority. The true majority will be the 8-10,000 pilots over 55 (it might be more and many, many of those thousands will be over 60) that could be swayed to accept a simple pay raise vs. anything significant. IF.......and that's a big "if" the APA BOD is persuaded to send something sub-standard to the pilots will the majority reject it considering the wide demographics and vastly different priorities apparent ?

    That's the wild card. The huge majority of AA pilots are very near retirement and the clock is ticking on maximizing their income, so many may be very adverse to passing on a pay raise that may not come around again until they are gone or nearly so. I think the VERY junior flows who will still be an extreme minority will simply be along for the ride come 2020. I'll bet that if anything weak gets to the pilots a simply majority (50%+1) will accept what is offered (i.e., it's the best we could get) even if it contains some form of scope concession. I'm sure most will claim they voted no, but AA is littered with a "it's good for me" philosophy among many of its pilots and I see that outcome as a strong risk. It's happened before, both at AA and other pilot groups, even Eagle/Envoy.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 03-13-2017 at 12:34 PM.

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    I think that's not all that bad a bet. Let's face it, are WO pilots (especially those at Envoy) standing up and aggressively defending their contract now ? I don't see that at all. Sure, there's grumbling, but for the most part capitulation and that's even with more onerous conditions and violations then at AA. It's not all their fault as they have an impotent union as bad as APA and the general rationalization among many is a "not much we can do" attitude. If the WO's are to get perhaps a little more then half of the next three years new-hire slots at AA, that would probably amount to no more then 1400 pilots or so and considering the 400 or so hired in the last couple of years, that would be about 1800 pilots out of 15,000, so I don't see anywhere near that percentage, so even if they did become the most militant faction, they are an extreme minority. The true majority will be the 8-10,000 pilots over 55 (it might be more and many, many of those thousands will be over 60) that could be swayed to accept a simple pay raise vs. anything significant. IF.......and that's a big "if" the APA BOD is persuaded to send something sub-standard to the pilots will the majority reject it considering the wide demographics and vastly different priorities apparent ?

    That's the wild card. The huge majority of AA pilots are very near retirement and the clock is ticking on maximizing their income, so many may be very adverse to passing on a pay raise that may not come around again until they are gone or nearly so. I think the VERY junior flows who will still be an extreme minority will simply be along for the ride come 2020. I'll bet that if anything weak gets to the pilots a simply majority (50%+1) will accept what is offered (i.e., it's the best we could get) even if it contains some form of scope concession. I'm sure most will claim they voted no, but AA is littered with a "it's good for me" philosophy among many of its pilots and I see that outcome as a strong risk. It's happened before, both at AA and other pilot groups, even Eagle/Envoy.


    Nothing more than total wild speculation on your part and again, more hope that the flow will be turned off for the Envoy guys in the future. You are so dead wrong about that. I'm on record that saying that potentially more aircraft are on the way with a big announcement by the end of the 2nd quarter.

    Add in the AWAC drawdown, the huge hiring classes we are having that are growing and the number will just keep going up and up. What does that add up to? More Captain slots. Less than a 2 year upgrade and sub 5 year flow. The flow is going to keep on keeping on my man. Your doom and gloom is not going to stop that freight train at full speed on the tracks right now.

    I get so tired of your never ending bull s**t, opining and doom and gloom here is what I'm going to do. End of the 2nd quarter is done on June 30th. When what happens that I think is going to happen, you will be blown away. Debate. You vs. me. Any TA or APC member is welcome to attend. Hard 8 in Coppell early July. I will flat enjoy making you eat that crow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post


    Nothing more than total wild speculation on your part and again, more hope that the flow will be turned off for the Envoy guys in the future. You are so dead wrong about that. I'm on record that saying that potentially more aircraft are on the way with a big announcement by the end of the 2nd quarter.

    Add in the AWAC drawdown, the huge hiring classes we are having that are growing and the number will just keep going up and up. What does that add up to? More Captain slots. Less than a 2 year upgrade and sub 5 year flow. The flow is going to keep on keeping on my man. Your doom and gloom is not going to stop that freight train at full speed on the tracks right now.

    I get so tired of your never ending bull s**t, opining and doom and gloom here is what I'm going to do. End of the 2nd quarter is done on June 30th. When what happens that I think is going to happen, you will be blown away. Debate. You vs. me. Any TA or APC member is welcome to attend. Hard 8 in Coppell early July. I will flat enjoy making you eat that crow.
    You demonstrate both blue-ribbon speculation yourself and misguided delusion. For the umpteenth time, I have never said the flow WILL stop, nor that I want it too. I HAVE discussed reasons why it might do so as my position is there are no guarantees while you are selling certainties, thus YOUR speculation and the delusion about me that is fueling it. As for your claims about the usual stuff, it means nothing to me as what means something is keeping the flow engine balanced for it to run CORRECTLY. If 25 flow a month, 25 should be run through upgrade in the same month (not just receive a bid award) and 25 new-hires should be line qualified (not just attend ground school to go home for weeks or months).

    Tired of MY B.S. ? Buddy, it sounds like all kinds of people are fed up with YOUR endless B.S., so I think you got me beat in that area - Chief forum B.S. procurer. As for your offer of a mud-wrestling date this summer, thanks but no thanks. I enjoy eating pork, but have no interest in rolling around with it.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 03-13-2017 at 05:46 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post


    Nothing more than total wild speculation on your part and again, more hope that the flow will be turned off for the Envoy guys in the future. You are so dead wrong about that. I'm on record that saying that potentially more aircraft are on the way with a big announcement by the end of the 2nd quarter.

    Add in the AWAC drawdown, the huge hiring classes we are having that are growing and the number will just keep going up and up. What does that add up to? More Captain slots. Less than a 2 year upgrade and sub 5 year flow. The flow is going to keep on keeping on my man. Your doom and gloom is not going to stop that freight train at full speed on the tracks right now.

    I get so tired of your never ending bull s**t, opining and doom and gloom here is what I'm going to do. End of the 2nd quarter is done on June 30th. When what happens that I think is going to happen, you will be blown away. Debate. You vs. me. Any TA or APC member is welcome to attend. Hard 8 in Coppell early July. I will flat enjoy making you eat that crow.
    I get so tired of your disregard that the quality of life here sucks. My day to day life and the quality of it have continued to drop every day since bankruptcy. I'll go in record saying that there is no reason for the flow to stop. However, you sounding off like a broken record to a badly beaten group of pilots is getting tedious. The sooner you admit the company has much to do to improve this $hity airline the sooner we can all just move on.

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