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Thread: AA pay and scheduling problems,

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    ".....Typical Union posturing is what it is."

    Two things the members of this forum should take from your statement here, that being;

    1. Obviously, you aren't a union member as your antagonism here displays.

    2. You believe YOU know what's true over at AA regarding these issues more so then the certified bargaining agent in place there or their pilots.

    The first has been obvious for as long as you've haunted this and other forums, so your credibility is shot in regard to providing any non-biased, factual position and second, point #2 indicates you exist in a Trumpian alternate reality of fantasy, delusion-of-grandeur and denial. Both of these undeniable realities are laughingly ironic considering your sole reason for existence is to pull pilots to Envoy by the promise of pushing them to AA where they too can be part of supposedly baseless union posturing someday where none of their grievances are true.

    What a schizophrenic world you live in my friend. Have you thought about contacting the POTUS and offering your spokesperson services ? I'd think you'd fit right in !
    Let's get something straight right out of the gate. I am an ALPA member in good standing. I've been here 11 years and have volunteered in two different capacities during that time. My statement regarding posturing was related to the APA. They always seem to be giving away the farm and then whining about it down the road. Read selling the farm to US Air to get rid of AMR. Look in the mirror. You did it to yourself. That's the statement regarding posturing.

    I happen to know quite a bit about what's happening at AA as I have friends there. Both who have flowed and those who have been there for many years. I have also been involved in the flow process on the Envoy side as well.

    I came to this board specifically because it was nothing more than a constant b**chfest with no relevant information and a lot of hot air. I'm trying to turn things around to focus on the positives we have, like sub 6 year flow, like 2 year upgrades, like the best pay for new hires out there, like opening new bases. Many, many good things are happening here and 90% of our pilots are aware of that and are cheering for them to continue. If we can turn this last 8 to 10% around here, then we have true unity.

    I am aware of some griping about the schedules. From talking to large numbers of pilots here myself, this is largely overblown. Yes, there are some lines that leave something to be desired. But there are the exception and not the norm.

    The 10% want everything now. Well, you can't have it all at once. Even if you did, the majority on here would still be reveling in their b**chfest. You got what you wanted, career progression to the largest major airline in the world. Stop trying to sink the boat that is taking you there.

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    Obviously he considers that to fake information unworthy of response.
    My biggest complaint about your posting is.......YOU DON"T EVEN WORK HERE! How would you even know.

  3. #23
    Registered User schmuck's Avatar
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    Many, many good things are happening here and 90% of our pilots are aware of that and are cheering for them to continue
    Agreed

    From talking to large numbers of pilots here myself, this is largely overblown. Yes, there are some lines that leave something to be desired. But there are the exception and not the norm
    Absolute horsesheet. The majority of our lines are low credit with 11-12 days off. Meanwhile, our friends at Endeavor are holding lines with 18+ off and high credit. Crap lines here are most definitely the norm and not the exception. And the majority of us that fly the line are completely unhappy with schedules.

    I'll give credit where credit is due. Upgrade time is dropping like a rock and will indeed be 2 years and change at some point this year. First year pay is finally where it should be and competitive with other top paying regionals. Flow is working and is a great backup plan. But don't you dare try to act like our schedules are just peachy with only a handful of undesirable lines here and there and that most of us are just fine and happy with them. Please, don't insult us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by schmuck View Post
    Agreed



    Absolute horsesheet. The majority of our lines are low credit with 11-12 days off. Meanwhile, our friends at Endeavor are holding lines with 18+ off and high credit. Crap lines here are most definitely the norm and not the exception. And the majority of us that fly the line are completely unhappy with schedules.

    I'll give credit where credit is due. Upgrade time is dropping like a rock and will indeed be 2 years and change at some point this year. First year pay is finally where it should be and competitive with other top paying regionals. Flow is working and is a great backup plan. But don't you dare try to act like our schedules are just peachy with only a handful of undesirable lines here and there and that most of us are just fine and happy with them. Please, don't insult us.
    Just going to have to disagree here. I look at the schedules and what I'm saying is my opinion formed from this and talking with many pilots, commuters and non commuters.

    I've already said this but I am going on record again. Expect an announcement sometime in the second quarter regarding additional 175s. Forgot to include that in my list of positives on the last post.

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    SOME griping about schedules??? Get real, bro!

    That's all anyone talks about on the line. 4 on 3 off is the very baseline QOL item for a pilot regarding schedules. I'm not talking variety, purity, cadence, commutability those have all but vanished long ago (granted there are morsels of variety here and there). But hey, at least we've got that last staple of 4 on 3 off. Oh wait, that's gone too. 4 on 2 off events are in over HALF of all bid packets. OVER HALF!!! An alarming amount of CRJ lines are nothing but 4 on 2 off.

    Pair two uncommutable 4 days together with 2 days off in between and you might as well say bye bye to the wife and kids for 10 days. Or, 4 on 2 off with a JM or EX? Same thing.

    Your viewpoint is skewed due to the fact that folks are afraid to pop their head up out of the foxhole around here for fear of the giant target that will be placed on their back.

    Seriously, dude. You are waaay off base on the level of contentment with these schedules. Not even in the right ballpark.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Just going to have to disagree here. I look at the schedules and what I'm saying is my opinion formed from this and talking with many pilots, commuters and non commuters.

    I've already said this but I am going on record again. Expect an announcement sometime in the second quarter regarding additional 175s. Forgot to include that in my list of positives on the last post.
    I'm going to need more info. What equipment are you on, and where are you based? Let's look at 11 years seniority in Ord emj,. 73 lines you were most likely involuntary TDY to LGA. DFW 175. You have the assortment of 6 am starts and 9pm finishes. Perfect for commuting with 11 days off. DFW 145. Maybe in the verge of holding a line? Have not studied the CRJ in Ord but maybe that's where you're. Enjoying that crown with the other koolaid drinkers. The same group that loved Tony and supported the 1113 etc....

  7. #27
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    I crj ord take offense to the last sentence, say most of them yes but to infer all no. Those,azz kissers, after f u c k I n g this place have all run of to aa the p u z z i e s.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by that_guy19 View Post
    SOME griping about schedules??? Get real, bro!

    That's all anyone talks about on the line. 4 on 3 off is the very baseline QOL item for a pilot regarding schedules. I'm not talking variety, purity, cadence, commutability those have all but vanished long ago (granted there are morsels of variety here and there). But hey, at least we've got that last staple of 4 on 3 off. Oh wait, that's gone too. 4 on 2 off events are in over HALF of all bid packets. OVER HALF!!! An alarming amount of CRJ lines are nothing but 4 on 2 off.

    Pair two uncommutable 4 days together with 2 days off in between and you might as well say bye bye to the wife and kids for 10 days. Or, 4 on 2 off with a JM or EX? Same thing.

    Your viewpoint is skewed due to the fact that folks are afraid to pop their head up out of the foxhole around here for fear of the giant target that will be placed on their back.

    Seriously, dude. You are waaay off base on the level of contentment with these schedules. Not even in the right ballpark.
    You are aware that even with 11 days off you are still netting 3 more days off per month than the majority of America right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    I crj ord take offense to the last sentence, say most of them yes but to infer all no. Those,azz kissers, after f u c k I n g this place have all run of to aa the p u z z i e s.
    Sorry. You're right. Should have clarified.

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    Question for you there, Dac.

    You're boss and maybe your boss's boss walk into your office or cube for a HQ version of a base visit. They claim they are open to discussion about your job, it's in's and out's, your level of contentment, and any hardships placed on you by them by say...closing your office building forcing you to commute in, or maybe forcing you to stop work for 3 or 4 hours every other day tanking your productivity and you have to now come in on Saturday to make the difference, "yeaaaah hi, Bill Lumberg,it's not a half day or anything."

    Point being, do you share with them as candidly as you do to your peers, your friends and family? Or do you maybe temper it down and remain respectfully professional - a basic jobsaving survival instinct.

    Maybe keep that in mind on your next base visit. Take the number of complaints you hear and their degree of frustration and anger displayed. Multiply by about a factor of 10 (factor, like, exponent), that should get you started on where things truly are out here.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You are aware that even with 11 days off you are still netting 3 more days off per month than the majority of America right?
    How many of Americans have to fly on an airplane standby to get to work. Oh I'm sorry commuting was my choice, after they closed 3 of my bases. Not getting home on my last day or coming in the day prior takes me down to the American avg of days off.

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    I don't even think Wilson himself would say the same BS you spout. That's one reason he doesn't answer questions. Better for him to not purger himself. Even he spotted saying commuting is a choice after closing all but two bases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You are aware that even with 11 days off you are still netting 3 more days off per month than the majority of America right?
    Good thing with all our day trip lines we get to spend every night in our own beds just like the majority of America....oh wait...

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    I didn't begin the pursuit of this profession in high school to work the same number of days as the majority of Americans. This has been said over and over to you. The majority of Americans go home every night. The majority of Americans don't commute halfway across the country because their employer closed their office.

    Your argument is bunk, what's worse, you know it.

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Let's get something straight right out of the gate. I am an ALPA member in good standing. I've been here 11 years and have volunteered in two different capacities during that time.
    Thank you for you service by volunteering.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I'm trying to turn things around to focus on the positives we have, like sub 6 year flow, like 2 year upgrades, like the best pay for new hires out there, like opening new bases. Many, many good things are happening here and 90% of our pilots are aware of that and are cheering for them to continue.
    These are all true, but they first points are spun a bit. Yes, flow and upgrade times are dropping. However we do not have a 6 year flow and a 2 year upgrade, yet. These are projected to happen, but have not happened yet. I've been here long enough to see lots of things projected, but never come to fruition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I am aware of some griping about the schedules. From talking to large numbers of pilots here myself, this is largely overblown. Yes, there are some lines that leave something to be desired. But there are the exception and not the norm.
    Not the norm?
    In Feb ~61% were on reserve with min. Days off (I'll run the numbers for March this week)
    Almost 100% of those people experienced an extension or Junior Man at least once. Some people are now being creatively JM'd into multi turn flights. It's very hard to have any QOL when you can't plan and make commitments with friends/family/activities.

    "Yes honey, I know I said that I would be there for your swearing in. I even bid it to have it off, but they JM'd me today and they tell me there is no one else available, so the earliest I can get home is late tomorrow. Can you send me a pic... Hello...????"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You are aware that even with 11 days off you are still netting 3 more days off per month than the majority of America right?

    Not this argument again. Do we really want to compare the majority of American workers days off to ours. Without looking it up when we calculated it out, at the end of the year we got 0.8 more days off per month then the average American.

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    Also, the majority of Americans with my level of education starting salary out of college was 55k, and that was nearly 10 years ago. They didn't toil as an instructor for 2 years flying their butt off making nothing to come here and make 26k. I'm only just now making what my non -pilot peers made right out of the gate. Point being, we all know it takes sacrifices to get here, but we do it anyway for various reasons including the perk of an INDUSTRY STANDARD baseline QOL item, 3 days off between our 4 day sequences.

    The reality is that most of us in good conscious cannot recommend this place to anyone despite the flow, despite the pay, and bonuses, because of the horrendous schedules and what it does to your personal life.

    Do some research on the generation you are actively recruiting from. Studies indicate that millennials value QOL over compensation more than any working generation prior to them.
    Last edited by that_guy19; 02-16-2017 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Furious fat thumbs

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You are aware that even with 11 days off you are still netting 3 more days off per month than the majority of America right?
    Go f u c k y o urself
    Sir, can I have another.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    You are aware that even with 11 days off you are still netting 3 more days off per month than the majority of America right?
    Are you f*cking kidding me? That's your answer? When most airlines (EVEN REGIONALS!!!) are averaging 15 days off a month, that's your f*cking answer???

    Here's the deal dude: I'm only a few months or so away from flowing. Yea, I can hear you now...yay me. I got displaced from Miami when it closed (QOL). I was close to holding a line, but then I got thrown on reserve in Chicago for another year...2 1/2 years on reserve (QOL) before I could hold a line. I've been holding a line for a while now, but the last 6 months, I've gotten total sh*t -- no better than my 50th choice (QOL) which means 11 days off (QOL), uncommutable lines (QOL), 2 days off between trips (QOL), many fatiguing 5-leg days (QOL), and worst of all - when I came to Chicago, we had over 240 lines. How many for March? 73. And because of the 30 TDYs, guess what I'm getting next month? Reserve (QOL). I've been here 11 f*cking years, I am almost senior enough to flow, and I have to sit reserve next month? Do you see all the (QOL)s in my paragraph? Those are real, serious, job degrading, demoralizing Quality of Life issues that we've been dealing with, the company has been imposing on us, the union hasn't been doing jack sh*t about, but HEY LUCKY ME because I get 3 more days off than the average f*cking American. Stop polishing sh*t dude, we're all pretty sick of it.
    Last edited by No Tuna In Cockpit; 02-16-2017 at 06:50 PM.

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    11 years huh? Mmmm nope nope nope.

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