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Thread: AA pay and scheduling problems,

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    I am aware of some griping about the schedules. From talking to large numbers of pilots here myself, this is largely overblown. Yes, there are some lines that leave something to be desired. But there are the exception and not the norm.
    Some griping? To quote the latest union email "Right now, the amount of flying we are undertaking at the current productivity is resulting in the majority of our lines containing multiple 2 day off events between our 4-day sequences." Oh, and the average number of days off barely exceeds the minimum number of days off.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post
    Let's get something straight right out of the gate. I am an ALPA member in good standing. I've been here 11 years and have volunteered in two different capacities during that time. My statement regarding posturing was related to the APA. They always seem to be giving away the farm and then whining about it down the road. Read selling the farm to US Air to get rid of AMR. Look in the mirror. You did it to yourself. That's the statement regarding posturing.

    I happen to know quite a bit about what's happening at AA as I have friends there. Both who have flowed and those who have been there for many years. I have also been involved in the flow process on the Envoy side as well.

    I came to this board specifically because it was nothing more than a constant b**chfest with no relevant information and a lot of hot air. I'm trying to turn things around to focus on the positives we have, like sub 6 year flow, like 2 year upgrades, like the best pay for new hires out there, like opening new bases. Many, many good things are happening here and 90% of our pilots are aware of that and are cheering for them to continue. If we can turn this last 8 to 10% around here, then we have true unity.

    I am aware of some griping about the schedules. From talking to large numbers of pilots here myself, this is largely overblown. Yes, there are some lines that leave something to be desired. But there are the exception and not the norm.

    The 10% want everything now. Well, you can't have it all at once. Even if you did, the majority on here would still be reveling in their b**chfest. You got what you wanted, career progression to the largest major airline in the world. Stop trying to sink the boat that is taking you there.
    For someone who claims to be a union member, you sure don't act like it. Reading your posts, you come across squarely as someone with management's interests first (and probably your own). You want to change the perception about yourself ? Stop blowing smoke up your own fellow pilots outflow valves convincing them that the reality they stomach every day doesn't exist. That reality has nothing to do with me or whether or not I work at Envoy.

    I've got almost a quarter of a century of Eagle first hand background, so I haven't wandered in from some flight school with no knowledge about Envoy. I find it another irony (predictable) that you rationalize YOUR claims about what is occurring at AA even though you don't work there and then in the same breath belittle my opinions about Envoy because I don't work here. I know Envoy pilots too, just like you know AA pilots, the only difference is you have zero past history at AA, whereas my history at Eagle (Envoy) is 2.5 times yours. I don't claim to know everything about present day Envoy, but I know more about it then you do AA.

    Personally, I think the more you try to force obviously biased information on those who know better (present Envoy pilots), the worse your credibility suffers. It's just a suggestion, but you might want to shutdown your B.S. machine for awhile.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dacuj View Post


    My biggest complaint about your posting is.......YOU DON"T EVEN WORK HERE! How would you even know.
    Again, how do you know ANYTHING about AA where YOU don't even work enough to claim what is or is not "union posturing".

    Get real, dude.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Again, how do you know ANYTHING about AA where YOU don't even work enough to claim what is or is not "union posturing".

    Get real, dude.
    He can only read what's on his cue cards, get ready for another "FLOW FLOW FLOW (dontworryabouttheawfulschedulesorqolatenvoy)" post.

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    Don't forget that this idiot, dacuj was over on APC before he got banned trying to sell Envoy in the Spirit and Frontier threads. Frontier being the lesser of the two, but both BLOW F***ING ENVOY OUT OF THE WATER. He also was deriding somebody who left Envoy for Jetblue. Said he gave up a multi million dollar career at AA for what, Jetblue?

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    I don't agree with the comments about the schedules not being bad. They are. The company needs to address this or risk losing some new hires in the future. The other stuff I agree with. We've never paid better and we are flowing more than the "real eagle" ever did. That's just two of the reasons that the new hires are flocking here. Couple that with the soon to be 2 year upgrades and maybe an LA base soon with a fix of the schedules and you have the top regional to come to if you are looking to get in on the front of the wave.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    I don't agree with the comments about the schedules not being bad. They are. The company needs to address this or risk losing some new hires in the future. The other stuff I agree with. We've never paid better and we are flowing more than the "real eagle" ever did. That's just two of the reasons that the new hires are flocking here. Couple that with the soon to be 2 year upgrades and maybe an LA base soon with a fix of the schedules and you have the top regional to come to if you are looking to get in on the front of the wave.
    A couple of questions;

    1. You say "we've never paid better", which is interesting as a line pilot would seem more apt to say "we've never been paid better" as opposed to the way you stated it, but anyway, could you explain further how much the majority of non new-hire pilots have improved their pay over the last few years ? Have they received significant pay rate increases ? I'm just trying to understand this statement. From my understanding, the true pay increases have come to new-hire pilots (carrots in the form of signing bonuses) and although smaller bonuses have been offered to those who stay, hasn't much of that been eroded by inefficient scheduling resulting in many, if not most of those non new-hire pilots banking less pay hours ? Also, will these "flocking" new-hires make more in year 2 then they did in year one and if not, how long will it take them to make what they made in their first year of carrot eating ?

    2. What's the fleet projection look like moving forward ? Will Envoy remain at present size to ensure a smooth-running upgrade/flow engine or will it contract requiring less captains and thus slower movement ? Also, considering Envoy's obvious inability to consistently move the same number of F/O's through all phases of the training process to the line as they would theoretically flow, how can they meet all these upgrade/flow claims in the future ? I hear this "wave" term again and every time I hear that (coupled with how you phrase your first point regarding pay), I see "sales" first and objectivity second. I think we all understand your job like that of your compadres, but murky claims need to be backed up with clear specifics for the claims to be considered viable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    A couple of questions;

    1. You say "we've never paid better", which is interesting as a line pilot would seem more apt to say "we've never been paid better" as opposed to the way you stated it, but anyway, could you explain further how much the majority of non new-hire pilots have improved their pay over the last few years ? Have they received significant pay rate increases ? I'm just trying to understand this statement. From my understanding, the true pay increases have come to new-hire pilots (carrots in the form of signing bonuses) and although smaller bonuses have been offered to those who stay, hasn't much of that been eroded by inefficient scheduling resulting in many, if not most of those non new-hire pilots banking less pay hours ? Also, will these "flocking" new-hires make more in year 2 then they did in year one and if not, how long will it take them to make what they made in their first year of carrot eating ?

    2. What's the fleet projection look like moving forward ? Will Envoy remain at present size to ensure a smooth-running upgrade/flow engine or will it contract requiring less captains and thus slower movement ? Also, considering Envoy's obvious inability to consistently move the same number of F/O's through all phases of the training process to the line as they would theoretically flow, how can they meet all these upgrade/flow claims in the future ? I hear this "wave" term again and every time I hear that (coupled with how you phrase your first point regarding pay), I see "sales" first and objectivity second. I think we all understand your job like that of your compadres, but murky claims need to be backed up with clear specifics for the claims to be considered viable.
    How about just one question for you. Does your life consist of posting in this forum and others under multiple screen names and slinging gear on an 80? That has to be all you do.

    I made a couple of comments and it leads you down the path of pointing a finger at me like I'm management and can decide these things. I'm not. Just a line pilot here that is mostly satisfied with the company minus the schedule abuse. But I'll try to entertain you anyway while you are at home in your underwear and socks kicked up posting who knows where under how many screen names I couldn't guess.

    The fleet plans you ask about are constantly changing. You see that with the CRJs that we are still flying in 2017 that were supposed to be completely off property now. Notice that they keep adding numbers that are sticking around through the end of the year. The training department is slammed yes. That's one reason I understand that they had to pool the new hires as there are too many sitting at home for extended periods waiting for sims and IOE. The last class would have been close to 40 if they had put everyone in it so yes, we are still getting big numbers of new hires, which we need as the reserves get zeroed out pretty early in the day. To add to that, the rumors of more 175's and LA just won't go away. So, again, minus the scheduling, things aren't too bad here.

    Way better than in your day when you were flying a turboprop into bum f**k Texas somewhere in the stifling heat sweating your balls off waiting 20 plus years to flow. If you didn't know, new guys are flying APU air conditioned brand new 175's with autothrottles and VNAV waiting 6 years to flow. That's how much things have changed around here and why I don't think things are that bad.
    Last edited by FlameInSky; 02-17-2017 at 02:00 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    How about just one question for you. Does your life consist of posting in this forum and others under multiple screen names and slinging gear on an 80? That has to be all you do.
    Sure, unlike you I'll answer. The answer to your forum question is "no". It doesn't expend much time or energy to post on pilot forums. As for the gear slinging "80" part, you pose this as if it's a negative. Considering your primary reason for waking in the morning is to get yourself to where you think I am, I find it odd you represent this as a negative, but when one twists themselves into a pretzel, they usually end up just looking back at themselves and so that last part of your question is thus predictable.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    I made a couple of comments and it leads you down the path of pointing a finger at me like I'm management and can decide these things. I'm not. Just a line pilot here that is mostly satisfied with the company minus the schedule abuse. But I'll try to entertain you anyway while you are at home in your underwear and socks kicked up posting who knows where under how many screen names I couldn't guess.

    The fleet plans you ask about are constantly changing. You see that with the CRJs that we are still flying in 2017 that were supposed to be completely off property now. Notice that they keep adding numbers that are sticking around through the end of the year. The training department is slammed yes. That's one reason I understand that they had to pool the new hires as there are too many sitting at home for extended periods waiting for sims and IOE. The last class would have been close to 40 if they had put everyone in it so yes, we are still getting big numbers of new hires, which we need as the reserves get zeroed out pretty early in the day. To add to that, the rumors of more 175's and LA just won't go away. So, again, minus the scheduling, things aren't too bad here.

    Way better than in your day when you were flying a turboprop into bum f**k Texas somewhere in the stifling heat sweating your balls off waiting 20 plus years to flow. If you didn't know, new guys are flying APU air conditioned brand new 175's with autothrottles and VNAV waiting 6 years to flow. That's how much things have changed around here and why I don't think things are that bad.
    Oh well, how silly of me to expect any viable info. No fleet projections, no upgrade timeline rationalizations, no confronting the pay claims, no acknowledgement of managements complete ridicule of your contract for that matter, no nothing. Only the same empty rhetoric about how poor little me, a worthless S80 gear-slinger who spends too much time in his underwear and socks asking relevant questions of those obviously incapable of answering them. That along with deflectory statements about my supposed past life sweating in turboprops and resulting jealousy over the 15% of the Envoy pilots swooning in Embraer 175's or shorter theoretical flow times (to be AA gear-slingers themselves yet) is all that is offered. My assertion was that you (and others) claim so much, but offer so little to back it up.

    I rest my case.

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    Schedules sucking,. I'd say that is a fairly big issue. For the majority of my career here I have lived within one hour of the airport. To me a 6 am departure never bothered me because I had the luxury of leaving my house at 3. That being said there are many of us, that must commute in the night prior. There are many still that can't get home the last day of a trip. When I was an fo in Boston our schedules had variety. There were plenty of options that catered to the majority of the base, LA and NY included. Now jump ahead and our two largest domiciles are packed with unproductive uncommutable trips. My W2 this past year was less than it was in 2015. The only change from 2015 is now I have a 4 hour commute to and from Dallas every week to arrive and fly a horrible trip. Trip trade you say? Yes I guess for some it works. For some trading crap with crap is maybe slightly better crap. OT, I suppose I could fly to Dallas on one of my 11 days off, but I'm sure my marriage would end rather abruptly.
    So while you can admit that the schedules are bad, maybe you should put a little more emphasis on that aspect, as that single handedly affects our quality of life.
    Flow, and retaining acft, I don't think anyone here would argue that these are great things for our airline. However telling the pilot that if he endures 6 years of hell to flow to American, that benefit may soon prove moot. I'm going on 12 years, and maybe will flow to AA at the end of the year. Like so many who have the count down programed on their phones. I wouldn't tell new hires to come here solely for the purposes of flow. The airline you pick should include many factors. One being can I stomach this place. Right now I know many first officers being hired at Delta and united. The days of pic time to get hired are in short supply. That being said any Fo starting out has the same shot of getting hired off the street at any airline. The things they should be asking, where will I have the best quality of life. I.e movement, duty/ work rules, and living in base/ cost of living.

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    Oh well, how silly of me to expect any viable info. No fleet projections, no upgrade timeline rationalizations, no confronting the pay claims, no acknowledgement of managements complete ridicule of your contract for that matter, no nothing. Only the same empty rhetoric about how poor little me, a worthless S80 gear-slinger who spends too much time in his underwear and socks asking relevant questions of those obviously incapable of answering them. That along with deflectory statements about my supposed past life sweating in turboprops and resulting jealousy over the 15% of the Envoy pilots swooning in Embraer 175's or shorter theoretical flow times (to be AA gear-slingers themselves yet) is all that is offered. My assertion was that you (and others) claim so much, but offer so little to back it up.

    I rest my case.
    Should have known it would be one of your typical ramblings. Here, the pic below. I rest MY case.

    envoy.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF View Post
    Schedules sucking,. I'd say that is a fairly big issue. For the majority of my career here I have lived within one hour of the airport. To me a 6 am departure never bothered me because I had the luxury of leaving my house at 3. That being said there are many of us, that must commute in the night prior. There are many still that can't get home the last day of a trip. When I was an fo in Boston our schedules had variety. There were plenty of options that catered to the majority of the base, LA and NY included. Now jump ahead and our two largest domiciles are packed with unproductive uncommutable trips. My W2 this past year was less than it was in 2015. The only change from 2015 is now I have a 4 hour commute to and from Dallas every week to arrive and fly a horrible trip. Trip trade you say? Yes I guess for some it works. For some trading crap with crap is maybe slightly better crap. OT, I suppose I could fly to Dallas on one of my 11 days off, but I'm sure my marriage would end rather abruptly.
    So while you can admit that the schedules are bad, maybe you should put a little more emphasis on that aspect, as that single handedly affects our quality of life.
    Flow, and retaining acft, I don't think anyone here would argue that these are great things for our airline. However telling the pilot that if he endures 6 years of hell to flow to American, that benefit may soon prove moot. I'm going on 12 years, and maybe will flow to AA at the end of the year. Like so many who have the count down programed on their phones. I wouldn't tell new hires to come here solely for the purposes of flow. The airline you pick should include many factors. One being can I stomach this place. Right now I know many first officers being hired at Delta and united. The days of pic time to get hired are in short supply. That being said any Fo starting out has the same shot of getting hired off the street at any airline. The things they should be asking, where will I have the best quality of life. I.e movement, duty/ work rules, and living in base/ cost of living.
    I acknowledged the schedules are a problem. They are. Fix that and you are pretty much set here. As for your 12 years to flow, you were obviously hired in the middle of the lost decade. Unfortunately that's the case with a lot of folks. But look at the flow numbers we've had since the numbered guys started going over. The most in history. The projections for a 6 year flow hold up. They aren't going to change. First, it's contractual. Second, the company doesn't want to shoot themselves in the foot.

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    Sir, 12 or 6 is irrelevant. The last 6 years have been horrible. They also coincide with the bankruptcy and the downturn of this place. The first 6 years I was here were great, and frankly one of the reasons I chose eagle. If you want to go on a recruiting mission and sell envoy to prospective new hires, then great be my guest. However, the line pilots here aren't preaching anything that isn't true. If a prospective new hire reads the forum, the info they are reading isn't true. It's real feelings and sentiments from real pilots. I would assume that is why any perspective candidate would come to a forum. It's the recruiters job to tell them how good it could be, not what they will, in reality experience. For what it's worth when I was hired the check airrman at my interview told our interview group we would all be Captains in 3 years. When I got to the line that January the upgrade was indefinite. Had these forums been around back then would you have shunned a pilot for saying that the upgrade time was untrue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FlameInSky View Post
    Should have known it would be one of your typical ramblings. Here, the pic below. I rest MY case.

    envoy.jpg
    Pretty picture. Irrelevant to the questions asked and unanswered counselor, but pretty.

    As an Envoy "defense lawyer", your case remains at ambulance chaser status. No witnesses, no evidence circumstial or otherwise, no case.

    Ruling for the plaintiff, Beagleboy................Court adjourned.

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    Col Breed (Dacuj); Maj Reisman (Beagleboy); 1st Platoon (E175).

    https://youtu.be/bJJHSsLhE24?t=128

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    Thought this more fitting.
    https://youtu.be/LUmqBuS8GAA

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    the continuation of the saga at AA,


    http://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/ne...html?ana=yahoo
    Sir, can I have another.

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    SInce the bankruptcy plus a couple it's sucked here. Steadily downhill. Sure, there's been an uptick in hiring and the like. Schedules really haven't changed. The griping is less because they've gotten rid of us old guys that have been stuck here forever waiting to leave. Sure makes the schedules we used to complain about in the mid-2000s look quaint and enjoyable compared to what's available today. I'm done. Leaving/left for AA, kept my mouth mostly shut here because I'm burned out and I've got too much other stuff to worry about, and didn't want to give my name away by pinning down a class date. Present or future.

    All the best to everyone, I know we've disagreed on more than one occasion on many subjects here but there are no hard feelings.

    Eagle crews are the best crews. Good luck to everyone, I'll see you on the other side griping on C&R or the AArena.
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flugschlafen View Post
    All the best to everyone, I know we've disagreed on more than one occasion on many subjects here but there are no hard feelings.

    Eagle crews are the best crews. Good luck to everyone, I'll see you on the other side griping on C&R or the AArena.
    Well said brother. See you on the dark side.

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    Good luck wish you the best.

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