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Thread: Frustrated Pilots

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    Registered User NoOtPilot's Avatar
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    Frustrated Pilots


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    Pilots are angry because Parker has declined to reopen their 2015 contract to bring pay in line with new rates at Delta, United and Southwest. He said their pay will remain fourth-highest until the next negotiation in 2019, when the airline will offer more than rivals. Aviators since have twisted American's "going for great" slogan to "going for fourth," and union leaders have urged members not to volunteer for extra work.

    The pilots' union says it's seen an unprecedented quadrupling of fatigue reports because of a new scheduling system that puts pilots at the edge of federal flying limits. An effort to improve on-time performance by closing jetway boarding doors 10 minutes before a scheduled departure time also has riled some pilots.

    http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...y-ahead-rivals
    I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

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    Welcome to the life of an envoy pilot. Good to see it won't take long to adjust after flowing.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    Pilots are angry because Parker has declined to reopen their 2015 contract to bring pay in line with new rates at Delta, United and Southwest. He said their pay will remain fourth-highest until the next negotiation in 2019, when the airline will offer more than rivals. Aviators since have twisted American's "going for great" slogan to "going for fourth," and union leaders have urged members not to volunteer for extra work.

    The pilots' union says it's seen an unprecedented quadrupling of fatigue reports because of a new scheduling system that puts pilots at the edge of federal flying limits. An effort to improve on-time performance by closing jetway boarding doors 10 minutes before a scheduled departure time also has riled some pilots.

    http://www.dallasnews.com/business/a...y-ahead-rivals
    Just the tip of the iceberg with the pilots which is a fitting statement as with 4-5 times the debt. of its competitors, AA is a future Titanic.

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    Glad I'm out and didn't had to wait for the flow.

    In my Delta class we have a total of 5 exEnvoy. I wish more guys/gals would try to move instead of waiting for the flow. If you're an 824, it's understandable why you should stay. Everybody else should be try to go to UAL/DAL/SW/Fedex/UPS.

    Parker will keep with the divide and conquer strategy, while making it seem they care for you. "Our people is angry, wait a minute, let's give them 2 free tickets that will get them to work harder".

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    Also, Delta new contract expires in 2020. Guess what will happen when AA signs a new one in 2019?

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    Quote Originally Posted by esel View Post
    Also, Delta new contract expires in 2020. Guess what will happen when AA signs a new one in 2019?
    Exactly. Parker is setting up AAG to be in a position which continuously renders their pay lowest.

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    The AA pilots could be smart and have a snap up like at United. When either Delta or united get a pay raise AA matches it. Was smart thinking on United's part.

    Esel. I'm not waiting for flow. I'm running not walking to the nearest suitable exit. Not the easiest to hear from Delta United or FedEx. Though I'm hopeful. Despite the rainbows and unicorns that dacuj posts for the envoy flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF View Post
    The AA pilots could be smart and have a snap up like at United. When either Delta or united get a pay raise AA matches it. Was smart thinking on United's part.

    Esel. I'm not waiting for flow. I'm running not walking to the nearest suitable exit. Not the easiest to hear from Delta United or FedEx. Though I'm hopeful. Despite the rainbows and unicorns that dacuj posts for the envoy flow.
    The rainbows and unicorns are all in your mind if you think the grass is greener over at Delta or Fedex. The smart choice is to wait for your turn to flow at AA. Look at the retirement numbers over there. You'll zip up the seniority list like riding the space shot. At Delta or Fedex, you'll be waiting in the basement for years. And I personally feel that AA is the number one major job out there anyway. Sure, some disagree and that's your right. But AA is the largest major and you've got the most to lose by NOT going there.

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    Now I've heard it all. If you would honestly tell someone to stay at envoy instead of leaving tomorrow for Delta, it's not only wrong it's sick.

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    Now I've heard it all. If you would honestly tell someone to stay at envoy instead of leaving tomorrow for Delta, it's not only wrong it's sick.
    I've got one even better. On the APC forum, he was apparently hawking Envoy in the Spirit and Frontier threads. Actually trying to sell guys at those places that it's better to jump to Envoy than to stay at Spirit or Frontier. He said that an Envoy pilot leaving for either of those places was at best, extremely misguided, and also said it was not even a lateral move. It was a step down.

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    Dacuj, I'm not going to discuss with you. But I'll be 40% of the delta list in 10yrs and will retire in the top 100. With 35yrs to go I also be top payed for my last 23yrs of career. Waiting for AA would be at least 2.5 yrs at Envoy and about 300k less.

    Yes AA might be the biggest, but not the better. Take a look to the RSV system, profit sharing, pay scales, rigs and the way Delta treat their pilot group. AA debt is getting higher, Deltas is getting lower, it's just a matter of time before AA starts shrinking.

    Like I said, those in the 824 and flowing soon should stay. But everybody else should try to move to better places than envoy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by esel View Post
    Dacuj, I'm not going to discuss with you. But I'll be 40% of the delta list in 10yrs and will retire in the top 100. With 35yrs to go I also be top payed for my last 23yrs of career. Waiting for AA would be at least 2.5 yrs at Envoy and about 300k less.

    Yes AA might be the biggest, but not the better. Take a look to the RSV system, profit sharing, pay scales, rigs and the way Delta treat their pilot group. AA debt is getting higher, Deltas is getting lower, it's just a matter of time before AA starts shrinking.

    Like I said, those in the 824 and flowing soon should stay. But everybody else should try to move to better places than envoy.
    People are trying to get out. Congratulations to you, I wish you the best. You however come off a bit condescending towards everyone who is trying to get out of this ****hole. Ignore dacujs comments. Nobody needs to be told they should get out of here to whatever major calls first, we know. Just because it happened quickly for you doesn't mean others more qualified haven't been busting their ass trying to get out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PREVEMB View Post


    I've got one even better. On the APC forum, he was apparently hawking Envoy in the Spirit and Frontier threads. Actually trying to sell guys at those places that it's better to jump to Envoy than to stay at Spirit or Frontier. He said that an Envoy pilot leaving for either of those places was at best, extremely misguided, and also said it was not even a lateral move. It was a step down.
    Yes, there is obviously an air of desperation in his feverish efforts and I think most can agree it has pole-vaulted into the hopelessly silly. Not sure what his motivations are, whether it really be to AA or just up the Envoy management ranks, but he's clearly out of touch with what is occurring among the AA pilots. Many there and elsewhere would consider ANY position on the Delta list superior to one at the back of the AA list even with AA attrition as the issues there aren't solved by rate of advancement in seniority. He is entitled to his opinion though as long as we all recognize that is ALL it is, one opinion. My opinions are that since AA pilots contract doesn't even approach Delta's and is almost certain it never will, accelerating faster up the list isn't as important over the long run as putting down roots at a work environment where the pilots are valued not just in empty talk, but actual action. Between these two carriers, one airline has that and one airline simply doesn't. The other airlines like UAL and SWA do to varying degrees and they are morphing closer to Delta, while AA is moving further away.

    I'm not saying don't go to AA if that's what you want, just saying if you do, make sure your eyes are open to what you're sacrificing in doing so. Sounds as if many are in fact in that mind set here already as I keep hearing the argument that AA via the flow is simply a "back up", so it sounds like many seem to understand going to AA with its present environment including compensation which has little likelihood of ever changing is settling for less. Again, I think it's more then obvious AA is NOT Delta and is not UAL, SWA, FedEx or UPS. Better then a regional, for sure, but definitely NOT a premier legacy pilot employer like Delta as the others are morphing into at various rates. AA is big, no doubt, but so is Walmart and as such, size isn't as important as quality. IMO, AA's astounding debt compared to its competitors puts it at extreme risk should their gamble of long-term massive airline profits be kneecapped in the future which would nullify any accelerated seniority advancement that appears to be an advantage now. Should that happen, the worst place to be is in the bottom 3000 or so at AA which is generally considered the furlough bubble and it will take many years even with retirement to get senior to that red zone of nervousness.

    I think the better long term bet are carriers with shrewd and consistent management that makes cautious moves, doesn't run up excessive debt and has a reputation of treating not just their pilots well, but all their employees through demonstrable action and not empty, unfulfilled promises. How employees are treated in good times is an excellent litmus of how they will be treated in the not-so-good times and if AA is treating their pilots like this now with mind-blowing profits, I shudder to think what will happen if the AA house of cards collapses. If you are going to AA in the future, my advice would be to continue to stay loose, keep your options open for better and save your money to have something to fall back on. Since you won't have a large investment there, it would only make sense to continue pursuit of one of the 5 top-tier pilot employers which a year or two from now, might just add another LCC or two to that list unless something about AA overrides all the other concerns like domicile for instance. Good luck in deciding for yourselves based on your own provable observations as to what is the best long-term career move. The tortoise beat the hare in that race for a reason as he knew thoughtless planning, hasty decisions and baseless assumptions usually prove to have been the wrong initial strategy at some point later in the future.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 01-28-2017 at 12:32 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flyinsol0 View Post
    People are trying to get out. Congratulations to you, I wish you the best. You however come off a bit condescending towards everyone who is trying to get out of this ****hole. Ignore dacujs comments. Nobody needs to be told they should get out of here to whatever major calls first, we know. Just because it happened quickly for you doesn't mean others more qualified haven't been busting their ass trying to get out.
    I'm sorry if it comes out that way. I really hope the best for my ExEagle friends and I'm trying to help a lot of them. But some are just wrapped up with waiting for the flow idea. I guess Dacuj post trolled me.

    Btw, it didn't happened quickly for me. I tried to move for about 3 to 4 years. It's a long and tiring process the whole Job Fair, keep your apps in the way these places like. It's like a second job during your time off, add that family obligations and it's almost impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EGF View Post
    Simple you are a man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Slappy View Post
    Simple you are a man.
    There are a few newly upgraded pilots on the line waiting on class dates at United. There are a few in upgrade classes now waiting on classes at Delta or United. All are guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eaglepilot View Post
    There are a few newly upgraded pilots on the line waiting on class dates at United. There are a few in upgrade classes now waiting on classes at Delta or United. All are guys.
    Obviously, that is the law of averages. If you listen to her rant, she is playing the gender card. I was doing the same. I do it in jest, she does it on the plane. And you call me out. When the day is over, we are all pilots, yet I am judged harshly.

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    The airlines have forecast slower economic growth in the near future, that may play right into Parker's hands when negotiations are on the table again.
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable.

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