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Thread: What the new TA will cost me financially.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringfellowhawke View Post
    My biggest concern IS with the new hires, or lack thereof. Everyone on here is so concerned with what this TA will mean for their own pocket, career progression, etc., but so far most fail to see the bigger picture. If nobody wants to come work here under the conditions that we are about to potentially impose, do you really think envoy will be safe from liquidation? Do you really think management cannot say that the situation is beyond their control, and move the shiny new planes elsewhere for temporary relief? Forget the fact that we will be a pack of PSA bashing guilty hypocrites by selling out this profession even further, but more importantly, and as can be seen unfolding at Endeavor; we could be expediting our demise by allowing Parker to reattempt the failed Endeavor model. Nobody has yet addressed this side to the story, and yet it's already taking place at another carrier that has the large planes, has a flow for new hires, and has a retention bonus that dwarfs what we are being offered. Do you trust that this management will not be so far behind the power curve that by the time they realize they need to completely redo the FO payscale, bonuses, (throw in some unicorns and rainbows), the only remaining applicants will be DUI riddled PSA washouts? "This is not my problem; let management deal with it when the time comes." Really??? The time is now, and we need to take a different path than what Delta chose if we want to actually learn from other's mistakes.
    I think this TA is a slight improvement on what PSA and PDT got fed. New hires will have similar contracts at all three of the wholly owned. But they won't come here because the other two have a faster upgrade time. We can't offer a quick upgrade. The improved flow can be a hiring point, but it's so small for new hires that it probably won't be considered in a new hires mind.

    We don't know what management will do in the future to attract new hires. This TA is certainly not the answer to the hiring problem.

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    Registered User RIGHTWINGMAN's Avatar
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    Francisco I know you passed on the flow a few years ago and that's just fine that was your choice, but if I'm not mistaken your at the top of the scale here,you will keep your 5th week vacation, and yes it's a meager 1 % raise and all that bullcrap associated with health insurance and perdiem ,but my question is how long will it take you to get to what you're making right now if this place shuts down iin two years if you were to get hired by JetBlue or spirit?youll probably won't even make it to captain,and unless you go overseas youll still be in the boat you didn't want to board at AA,crappy quality of life and years to get back at your wage levels, so how's voting no help you in 2 to 3 years?

    Ardvark is a different story,he lives in the north east and his planning on living on welfare after we get shut down, so he's pretty much covered. LOL.

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    Devil's advocate here. The new hires you worry about had no problem rushing to PSA when their pilots sold them out. Perhaps they'll come here for the same reason.

    Our leadership went from fervent opposition to supporting concessions. I assume they have been convinced of the Comair scenario. I expect this will come out in the road shows.
    I see 3 paths forward:
    1. YES
    2. NO and continue
    3. NO and Comair

    If you're on the fence between 2 and 3 it's a tough call.

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    How can the improved flow be a hiring point, this airline will continue to contract. We knew about this a number of years ago, that has been the plan all along. They intend to make this airline a fraction of its size and you're about halfway through the process. The final piece of the puzzle was to secure large regional jets on property at a cost they could live with. The only thing left for them to do is sign the paperwork.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    If you think shutting it down is where it's going, then voting yes and taking as much money from them short term benefits you. Most people seem the think if they are going to Comair us, that it happens in 2-3 years tops. So, go do the math over 3 years. You're way better off in that case taking the deal they currently offered.

    I don't think they're spending all this money to close us down, but to each their own.
    Wow Cujo! How you've changed... You and AllisonRR could potentially make up and even go make out! So, just like in 1997, and just like what happened with the PSA MEC, who will be joining you on a free ride to AA if this passes? Did you guys get a nice little deal worked out down in DC? Had high hopes for you, but I guess people change, or their true nature eventually comes out. This would be a good time to take back most of what you've ever said about the previous yes voters and Team Tony delegates. I guess the rest of us will keep fighting for what is right on our own.

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    There's no question we will shrink, but once you shrink to whatever level it will be do you want to continue to be employed have a path forward with a clear horizon or fog with no way to navigate through it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Yossarian View Post
    Devil's advocate here. The new hires you worry about had no problem rushing to PSA when their pilots sold them out. Perhaps they'll come here for the same reason.

    Our leadership went from fervent opposition to supporting concessions. I assume they have been convinced of the Comair scenario. I expect this will come out in the road shows.
    I see 3 paths forward:
    1. YES
    2. NO and continue
    3. NO and Comair

    If you're on the fence between 2 and 3 it's a tough call.
    You missed one that's been proven historically: YES and Comair. Go actually speak with a former Comair pilot ans they will explain to you how they kept taking concessions to save themselves up until the door slammed. So, voting yes you have the same tough call to make Good luck!

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    Registered User RIGHTWINGMAN's Avatar
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    If your comair analogy or example has any validity at al, then my Eastern Airlines should hold too right?
    Attached Images Attached Images

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    Hey Right Wing...cannot argue with any of your points...But according to how I read the TA we all lose one weeks vacation....you concur???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco211 View Post
    Hey Right Wing...cannot argue with any of your points...But according to how I read the TA we all lose one weeks vacation....you concur???
    TA, appendix B, A 3

    No pilot will suffer a reduction in the number of vacation weeks he had accrued as of January 1, 2016 as a result of the implementation of the vacation accruals in Paragraph A.2., above.

  11. #51
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    Yes sir, Bohica is right and beat me to it you will not lose any vacation.

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    Well, that settles it I guess. This thing will pass, we will be ok except those who come fly in our right seat; those who many of us will depend upon. American Eagle Airlines will truly be dead, and we will more than deserve to be known as "envoy," just another crap regional where Pedro the Pawn will make all our wildest dreams come true. It'll be fun getting denied a jumpseat to work since now I'll be no better than those at PSA. All those no voters who have turned are sad and pathetic. At least the yes voters have kept steady guided by all the fear.

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    I'm a hell of a lot better than PSA, we stood our ground for the better part of a year, I personally don't see my self of any of my coworkers as PSA likes,in regards to american eagle, give a rest we've been envoy for how long now,done deal we are not that anymore, I know is hard to change minds, but am a realist not an idealist anymore, we're on our own on this and has been proven already, try offering express jet or Republic this deal they ll vote for it in a heartbeat.

    You can vote no, I'll vote yes, and cancel your vote,and I'll have a clear conscience too, I'll be able to sleep at night easily.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Well I will point out that a yes voter here has always voted yes from fear, hard to change. A no voter that keeps getting kicked around daily by every dumb agent or f/a who think a pilot works here for them and should vote yes takes a toll.

    But regardless of the vote American Eagle is a piece of paper and nothing more. Parker will allow every cheap feeder and envoy appears to be joining the group to feed aag.

    This ta does nothing detrimental to me other than a pay rate freeze. I was no before and will be no next week when I actually vote.

    This pilot group has allowed most of the negatives it experiences here from years of apathy and lack of knowledge.

    Expect the psa pdt ENY negotiations to begin in 18 months to start all over again. Alpa has proven to allow constant renegotiation to exist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringfellowhawke View Post
    Wow Cujo! How you've changed... You and AllisonRR could potentially make up and even go make out! So, just like in 1997, and just like what happened with the PSA MEC, who will be joining you on a free ride to AA if this passes? Did you guys get a nice little deal worked out down in DC? Had high hopes for you, but I guess people change, or their true nature eventually comes out. This would be a good time to take back most of what you've ever said about the previous yes voters and Team Tony delegates. I guess the rest of us will keep fighting for what is right on our own.
    This was the last round. They weren't coming back. The planes were going elsewhere. We are better off with the deal than without it. It's that simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Well I will point out that a yes voter here has always voted yes from fear, hard to change. A no voter that keeps getting kicked around daily by every dumb agent or f/a who think a pilot works here for them and should vote yes takes a toll.

    But regardless of the vote American Eagle is a piece of paper and nothing more. Parker will allow every cheap feeder and envoy appears to be joining the group to feed aag.

    This ta does nothing detrimental to me other than a pay rate freeze. I was no before and will be no next week when I actually vote.

    This pilot group has allowed most of the negatives it experiences here from years of apathy and lack of knowledge.

    Expect the psa pdt ENY negotiations to begin in 18 months to start all over again. Alpa has proven to allow constant renegotiation to exist.
    you don't have a freeze.

    with a yes vote they are buying out the 1% per year for the first 3 years with the $2,500 added to the $10,000
    then you get 1% from 2018 on.

    What's the paycut from your current top step CRJ pay to top step EMB pay when the CRJ's go with no replacement?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    This was the last round. They weren't coming back. The planes were going elsewhere. We are better off with the deal than without it. It's that simple.
    Where the hell could they go?? Spill it!! Who would be able to staff it?? I've heard from sources at the FAA that the Compass deal is falling through. They've threatened us before and yet came back; what has changed? If anything, the more time that has gone by, the less players remain who can take those planes. Either give some credible, plausible info about this threat, or stand in your own shame.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringfellowhawke View Post
    Wow Cujo! How you've changed... You and AllisonRR could potentially make up and even go make out! So, just like in 1997, and just like what happened with the PSA MEC, who will be joining you on a free ride to AA if this passes? Did you guys get a nice little deal worked out down in DC? Had high hopes for you, but I guess people change, or their true nature eventually comes out. This would be a good time to take back most of what you've ever said about the previous yes voters and Team Tony delegates. I guess the rest of us will keep fighting for what is right on our own.
    After hiring nobody in November.....
    between Sunday night and Tuesday noon, 6 applicants applied and 3 who turned job offer down have contacted the hiring guys for reconsideration.

    Thats not many but that is just within 40 hours
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringfellowhawke View Post
    Where the hell could they go?? Spill it!! Who would be able to staff it?? I've heard from sources at the FAA that the Compass deal is falling through. They've threatened us before and yet came back; what has changed? If anything, the more time that has gone by, the less players remain who can take those planes. Either give some credible, plausible info about this threat, or stand in your own shame.
    you better check your FAA sources again. Compass is not having any trouble staffing anything. Training bubble perhaps, but no trouble getting bodies. Especially with our own junior guys stating to run over. They were NOT the only ones wanting our jets.

    The problem is this IS the last deal. We've been working with (fighting them) for over a year and a half. Several times short term objectives were simply to get the company to come back to the table. They did NOT always come back on their own.
    This current negotiation was the last round with them. Without a deal, they would not be back, and would have moved on and not looked back.

    We smoked every timeline they gave us the past year and a half. We ignored timelines, dealines and countless Glass threats none of you ever even got to hear about. We have good intel through other MEC's of what's cooking on other properties. This was it. This time the threats were real, not Glass attacks. The planes were going elsewhere. It's pretty much that simple.

    That being the case, knowing the bad outcome that is possible without a deal; the prudent thing is to give you control over your own destiny. Since the majority in my base asked to see the deal and vote themselves; that's what I've worked to do.

    I can bash the deal with all the bad points as well as the next guy. I can point out the good things in it. That does not change the reality that our prospects going forward are still better with this, than without it. It sucks, but it's true.

    When the side by side with the March TA comes out; I think most will see the improvements. They aren't much, but they are there.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 12-10-2014 at 05:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stringfellowhawke View Post
    Where the hell could they go?? Spill it!! Who would be able to staff it?? I've heard from sources at the FAA that the Compass deal is falling through. They've threatened us before and yet came back; what has changed? If anything, the more time that has gone by, the less players remain who can take those planes. Either give some credible, plausible info about this threat, or stand in your own shame.
    A member of the MEC is advising you to accept this deal. This is a person who has been in meeting after meeting after meeting, has seen the numbers and a lot of confidential and NDA stuff. If the MEC is advising pilots to take the deal, I'd listen to them since we voted them all in.

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