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Thread: What the new TA will cost me financially.

  1. #21
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sully7777 View Post
    Take a look at the TA wagesheet and compare what you are currently getting. In my case under the weighted EMJ average I get a $1.00 plus increase on date of signing. That's immediate. Then the annual increase which we all get every year. That is simple math. Looks like a bit over $3.50 in my case.
    I get a $1.55 January 1, 2015 by voting no and 1.55+ every year after that by votin no I also get profit sharing every year by voting no. You are skewing your numbers, you as posted elsewhere are adding your longevity increase. Longevity increase has nothing to do with pay raises, but feel free to misrepresent the facts. That's why a yes vote suits you,
    I will vote no so I can keep what we have and not give it up for less as you wish to twist in the wind foe a yes vote.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    With the signing bonus I still come out way ahead, and if I vote yes I'll get a shiny new jet.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    The CRJ/E175 payband vanishing without replacements will suck for a lot of guys.
    If we do get the 40 E175's and the 90 options that's a lot more people into the higher pay band.
    Yes it will suck for a lot of pilots for a very long time. Your TA (granted current contract does neither) guarantees forty airplane fleet on this property by August 2017 and nothing more, only 280 pilots will be CRJ/e175 pay because we revert back to the way it was, pay based on aircraft flown not seniority.
    There are more pay cuts in this TA than you can shake a stick at.

    Vote no
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Not sure I agree with you yet cause I am not seeing it but will keep digging. On a side note like the old SAC patch was sad when they broke us up into ACC/AMC.

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    Has anyone looked to see what the got for profit sharing? Its not that much. If you're an FO its not worth all this and as a CA I'm pretty sure it would take you the rest of the 6 year contract to even come close to the $12,500 you're getting, if you ever made that much via profit sharing. Aside from the fact that no one knows how much we are supposed to be getting each year, does anyone know the forumla? Also, I believe the profit sharing is for Envoy profit alone, so guess whats happening is this gets voted down, take a guess who's suddenly not making their payout targets?

    We aren't talking about that much money when it comes to profit sharing (don't think I wouldn't like to have it, because I would), but its not worth voting NO for, especially with the bonus in this offer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Yes it will suck for a lot of pilots for a very long time. Your TA (granted current contract does neither) guarantees forty airplane fleet on this property by August 2017 and nothing more, only 280 pilots will be CRJ/e175 pay because we revert back to the way it was, pay based on aircraft flown not seniority.
    There are more pay cuts in this TA than you can shake a stick at.

    Vote no
    All do respect ardvark we know you are going to vote NO and I do not wish you to change the way you think. I see the advantages of having healthy debates. Nonetheless; It has been years of letting us know how you negatively feel about the union the company or any TA, LOA or side letter they can produce. How about you actually make arguments based on facts and figures not on speculation or your grim understanding of the contract.

    I know you would be happy if this airline would cease to exist and it is your right. But stop trying to convince people by belittling them or bullying them into the way you think.

    If you were to spend the same amount of time you do here you could be great help for the union or other your fellow pilots where it could actually make a difference.

    The TA does not get rid of pay banding it will be less CA affected by the time we receive the last 40 EMJ175 and assuming that all 47 CRJ have left. If we receive any options anything above 47 will be a bigger payband thus increasing the pay.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sully7777 View Post
    Not sure I agree with you yet cause I am not seeing it but will keep digging. On a side note like the old SAC patch was sad when they broke us up into ACC/AMC.
    Yes it was a sad day in Air Force history.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    I get a $1.55 January 1, 2015 by voting no and 1.55+ every year after that by votin no I also get profit sharing every year by voting no. You are skewing your numbers, you as posted elsewhere are adding your longevity increase. Longevity increase has nothing to do with pay raises, but feel free to misrepresent the facts. That's why a yes vote suits you,
    I will vote no so I can keep what we have and not give it up for less as you wish to twist in the wind foe a yes vote.
    Let me know how that works when they hang a padlock on the last airplane in a couple years. Then you will be getting 54 cents a mile and home every other weekend.

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    Allisonrr you may want to check again, it was the union rep posting that statement regarding pay banding, I did not make it, I responded to it.

    My negativity towards the union and there deal making is the unions doing, not mine. I do not have to support anything I do not like or agree with. You may do likewise, but what has a fowl smell is most surely spoiled and this TA has a very fowl smell to it.

    Vote yes, it only took 14 years to get 400 pilots to flow and this hiring will slow and stop to where there will be no flow and those then will be stuck here. Don't care, I will enjoy the Christmas and New Years, I will be voting no and that is all I can do.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Turboprop View Post
    Let me know how that works when they hang a padlock on the last airplane in a couple years. Then you will be getting 54 cents a mile and home every other weekend.
    Prove it.
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Prove it.
    Prove they will keep it operating.

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    Profit sharing is a percentage based on profit margin, of actual profit at envoy (formerly American Eagle Airlines).

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    Everyone will take a pay cut with this TA excluding the signing bonus. The longevity pay rises cannot be considered a pay rise in these calculations since I was looking at the difference between the current contract and the new TA. But you do look at the IAI vs 1% increase since that is where the concession is taken. E175 rates are the same for FO but higher for CA so you could take that as a pay rise if you are senior enough to hold E175 and are lucky enough it comes to your base. Commuting to fly a new shiny jet? Personally, No thank you!

    In my opinion the union has done a good job at trying to look out for people on property. The signing bonus will account for a lot, if not all, of the concessions. Just don't spend it like a bonus. However, new hires will be the biggest losers on this one. But that's a entirely different debate.

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    Basically this whole TA is a wash....loss of vacation, minute per diem increases, minute pay raises, increase in medical costs, etc... 1% raises while AA and DAL are getting 30%? They can do way better than 1%....Also, the length is too long..10 years? How about 4 years and we negotiate then? When I first heard about the 12,500 I finally felt I could vote yes. After reading into the agreement I felt it to be completely concessionary in several areas and I am not on board. If they want to shut us down that is their choice. I will not vote for an agreement that is not fair and equitable to us as a professional group of pilots..not when AAL is making billions of dollars...Sorry for the guys who have families but I just can't do it.

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    I see nothing in the TA which removes that pay banding. Is it in there?

    I don't care one bit how new, big, or shiny the aircraft I am flying is. The only things I care about are maximum pay, maximum days off, maximum quality of life, and remaining employed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bravobridge View Post
    I see nothing in the TA which removes that pay banding. Is it in there?

    I don't care one bit how new, big, or shiny the aircraft I am flying is. The only things I care about are maximum pay, maximum days off, maximum quality of life, and remaining employed.
    Effective on the first pay period following Date of Signing (DOS) of the New CBA, the wage rates set forth in Appendix A will replace the wage rates in Sections 3.A.1 and 3.C.1 of the 2013 CBA.1
    Effective January 1, 2016, Section 3.I.5 shall be deemed null and void and eliminated in its entirety from the New CBA and will be replaced with the addition of Section 9.C.3.d.

    New pay rates and wages eliminates the old

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    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    Yes it will suck for a lot of pilots for a very long time. Your TA (granted current contract does neither) guarantees forty airplane fleet on this property by August 2017 and nothing more, only 280 pilots will be CRJ/e175 pay because we revert back to the way it was, pay based on aircraft flown not seniority.
    There are more pay cuts in this TA than you can shake a stick at.

    Vote no
    we do not revert. Seniority pay bading is not effected

    a small fleet is better than no fleet. What guarantee do you have without this deal for a fleet? 68 aging E145's that they can park anytime they wish?
    __________________________________________________ __

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco211 View Post
    Basically this whole TA is a wash....loss of vacation, minute per diem increases, minute pay raises, increase in medical costs, etc... 1% raises while AA and DAL are getting 30%? They can do way better than 1%....Also, the length is too long..10 years? How about 4 years and we negotiate then? When I first heard about the 12,500 I finally felt I could vote yes. After reading into the agreement I felt it to be completely concessionary in several areas and I am not on board. If they want to shut us down that is their choice. I will not vote for an agreement that is not fair and equitable to us as a professional group of pilots..not when AAL is making billions of dollars...Sorry for the guys who have families but I just can't do it.
    If you think shutting it down is where it's going, then voting yes and taking as much money from them short term benefits you. Most people seem the think if they are going to Comair us, that it happens in 2-3 years tops. So, go do the math over 3 years. You're way better off in that case taking the deal they currently offered.

    I don't think they're spending all this money to close us down, but to each their own.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fo4life View Post
    Effective on the first pay period following Date of Signing (DOS) of the New CBA, the wage rates set forth in Appendix A will replace the wage rates in Sections 3.A.1 and 3.C.1 of the 2013 CBA.1
    Effective January 1, 2016, Section 3.I.5 shall be deemed null and void and eliminated in its entirety from the New CBA and will be replaced with the addition of Section 9.C.3.d.

    New pay rates and wages eliminates the old
    The rates are what each pay band pays. The pay banding does not go away.
    __________________________________________________ __

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    Quote Originally Posted by ZKK007 View Post
    Everyone will take a pay cut with this TA excluding the signing bonus. The longevity pay rises cannot be considered a pay rise in these calculations since I was looking at the difference between the current contract and the new TA. But you do look at the IAI vs 1% increase since that is where the concession is taken. E175 rates are the same for FO but higher for CA so you could take that as a pay rise if you are senior enough to hold E175 and are lucky enough it comes to your base. Commuting to fly a new shiny jet? Personally, No thank you!

    In my opinion the union has done a good job at trying to look out for people on property. The signing bonus will account for a lot, if not all, of the concessions. Just don't spend it like a bonus. However, new hires will be the biggest losers on this one. But that's a entirely different debate.
    My biggest concern IS with the new hires, or lack thereof. Everyone on here is so concerned with what this TA will mean for their own pocket, career progression, etc., but so far most fail to see the bigger picture. If nobody wants to come work here under the conditions that we are about to potentially impose, do you really think envoy will be safe from liquidation? Do you really think management cannot say that the situation is beyond their control, and move the shiny new planes elsewhere for temporary relief? Forget the fact that we will be a pack of PSA bashing guilty hypocrites by selling out this profession even further, but more importantly, and as can be seen unfolding at Endeavor; we could be expediting our demise by allowing Parker to reattempt the failed Endeavor model. Nobody has yet addressed this side to the story, and yet it's already taking place at another carrier that has the large planes, has a flow for new hires, and has a retention bonus that dwarfs what we are being offered. Do you trust that this management will not be so far behind the power curve that by the time they realize they need to completely redo the FO payscale, bonuses, (throw in some unicorns and rainbows), the only remaining applicants will be DUI riddled PSA washouts? "This is not my problem; let management deal with it when the time comes." Really??? The time is now, and we need to take a different path than what Delta chose if we want to actually learn from other's mistakes.

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