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Thread: Newtown CT School Shooting

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    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Exclamation Newtown CT School Shooting


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    Ongoing incident

    27 people murdered, 18 are children

    1 shooter dead, search underway for 2nd shooter

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    Registered User Flugschlafen's Avatar
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    Pity the shooter(s) is deceased.

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    Registered User KEITH STONE's Avatar
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    I've never advocated gun control laws, but I'm sick of this stuff. I have elementary kids, and could never imagine anyone deranged enough to shoot up one of their classes.

    I'm convinced that first person shooter games should be banned. It's very obvious that they are enabling young men to become desensitized to violence while honing their shooting skills. No doubt in my mind that the time has come to rid our society of them.

    Prayers for the families dealing with the loss of their loved ones. I can't even imagine what it would be like to lose a child at all, let alone in this way.
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    Blame the music, now blame the games. Perhaps you'd like to take my guns away? I've been playing shooter games forever. Does that make it "Obvious" that I'm going to go on a rampage?

    I'm sick of this stuff too.

    FPS games are not the issue. Millions and millions of copies are sold without gamers going on rampages.

    Continuing to advocate access to high powered weaponry with minimal restriction or tracking is the problem. I don't care if you want an arsenal. I don't care if you have assault rifles, because carrying around a couple of 9mm's with spare clips will give you the same capacity as an assault rifles. Be my guest. But you'd better be damn sure that every single weapon is known by the local constabulary, every transfer of weapons too. Private included. I don't care if one thinks that means the government knows how many guns to take away. Too bad, that's the cost of an arsenal. If you've got an arsenal because you're worried about the Man, the Man has a right to be worried about you.

    No matter what, some are going to slip through the cracks. Unnoticed. No warning flags, or they aren't taken seriously. As an avid shooter it makes me sick to listen to the NRA dogma about guns not killing people. Maybe they don't, but it sure makes it easy to wipe out a school full of kids and teachers in a hurry doesn't it?
    Last edited by Flugschlafen; 12-14-2012 at 03:31 PM.

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    I poorly worded my first sentence. I'm saying I have had a definite reversal in beliefs today. I can't stomach 5 year olds being murdered. The numbers of gun related murders in England is stupid low.

    I stand by my beliefs that violence in media desensitizes many. You aren't weak minded or mentally unstable, Flug.
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    OK, I'm with you. The cat is out of the bag, however. I'm all for letting folks own guns, but the sale and transfer of all guns need to be moderated by a local authority with the capability to do a proper background check that, if necessary, includes a mental health check.

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    Agreed. What we're seeing in these people is mental instability. They shouldn't have any access to weapons of any kind, and those who provide should be held accountable.
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    If these people want guns they will find them though

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    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KEITH STONE View Post
    I poorly worded my first sentence. I'm saying I have had a definite reversal in beliefs today. I can't stomach 5 year olds being murdered. The numbers of gun related murders in England is stupid low.

    I stand by my beliefs that violence in media desensitizes many. You aren't weak minded or mentally unstable, Flug.
    The number of gun related crimes in England has been increasing steadily ever since they went with their current all but ban on firearms...

    More die in one day in auto collisions in the US than in an entire year of gun violence. I don't see you rethinking your position on minimum age and training for a drivers license, or significantly harsher penalties for auto offenses.
    Speeding - $500 first offense
    Red light / stop sign - $900 first offense

    Second offense in a one year period, 30 day license suspension, and another $900 fine

    Third offense in a one year period, 1 year suspension and $1,000 fine

    Fourth offense, 10 days county jail

    Watch how fast accidents drop by 4/5ths.



    Our criminal justice system is a friggin joke... Has been for most of a century. Get tough on crime, really tough, and people won't risk it.

    If the kooks don't use a gun, they'll make a pipe bomb or other sick idea. Heroin is illegal everywhere... Does anybody have any trouble getting it if they want it? Prohibiting gun ownership just ensures only the criminals, and the cops, have them.
    No thank you. Rethink your rethinking.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 12-15-2012 at 09:56 PM.

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    Tell me the last time one driver drove over his mom, the drove over to the nearest school and killed a classroom full of kids and a bunch of teachers, then ran over himself.

    That's a bad argument. Cars aren't designed to kill or maim, quite the opposite. And it's a rare day that one gets used deliberately as a the instrument of an intentional homicide.

    Nobody here suggests taking away guns, only sensible regulation (not the useless crap we have now) to make sure that we know who is buying, who is selling, and that the guy taking clozapine or with a history of depression shouldn't get one. People need to shut the door on untracked private sales of weapons and mandate either some standard of securing weapons in the home and/or making owners who fail to secure weapons responsible for the crimes committed with them.

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    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flugschlafen View Post
    Tell me the last time one driver drove over his mom, the drove over to the nearest school and killed a classroom full of kids and a bunch of teachers, then ran over himself.

    That's a bad argument. Cars aren't designed to kill or maim, quite the opposite. And it's a rare day that one gets used deliberately as a the instrument of an intentional homicide.

    Nobody here suggests taking away guns, only sensible regulation (not the useless crap we have now) to make sure that we know who is buying, who is selling, and that the guy taking clozapine or with a history of depression shouldn't get one. People need to shut the door on untracked private sales of weapons and mandate either some standard of securing weapons in the home and/or making owners who fail to secure weapons responsible for the crimes committed with them.
    Not sure what crap laws you're talking about. Most states already have either a licensing process, or use the instant background check systems, or have delayed delivery to allow police to do background checks. Very few states are still letting people buy at the corner store with a drivers license as proof of age. ... By the way, the states where they can buy with just a drivers license are not the ones where 26 people are being gunned down.

    Autos are used as weapons far more often than you think... It just rarely makes the news... And there's no anti-auto-weapon use lobby to track it and make a big deal out of it. We have over 40,000 gun laws on the books already. We don't need more gun laws, we need more jail space, and fewer liberal judges who will impose actual sentences instead of putting the world on probation.

    Tracking the purchases of the guns would not have stopped a single crime.

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    There you go, your right wing stripe has come out. Just had to blame the "liberals" for what is wrong. That wins an argument every time, doesn't it?

    Your car argument is not going to work, no matter how hard you try. Intentional vehicular homicide is uncommon enough that I couldn't even find a number per year nationwide, but there are all too many stats for firearms.

    I say crap laws because they only affect non-private sales of firearms. They are crap laws because the guns-at-any-cost lobby prevents meaningful regulation. Guess which political majority they are?

    I can't temember the last time I had a firearm related background check to buy a gun. For the most part across the country, gun owners bear little responsibility for the securing weapons and thereby their misuse. Tracking private sales and requirement for that sale to pass the same background check (and psychological checks), plus the previously mentioned requirements for securing weapons would go a long way towards keeping guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them while allowing sane, law abiding citizens to continue to enjoy their sport.
    Last edited by Flugschlafen; 12-16-2012 at 10:13 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Not sure what crap laws you're talking about. Most states already have either a licensing process, or use the instant background check systems, or have delayed delivery to allow police to do background checks. Very few states are still letting people buy at the corner store with a drivers license as proof of age. ... By the way, the states where they can buy with just a drivers license are not the ones where 26 people are being gunned down.

    Autos are used as weapons far more often than you think... It just rarely makes the news... And there's no anti-auto-weapon use lobby to track it and make a big deal out of it. We have over 40,000 gun laws on the books already. We don't need more gun laws, we need more jail space, and fewer liberal judges who will impose actual sentences instead of putting the world on probation.

    Tracking the purchases of the guns would not have stopped a single crime.
    Just curious cuj, but considering the last several mass shootings with assault (combat) rifles, including (but not limited to) the Giffords incident in Arizona, the Colorado theatre massacre and now the annihilation of a classroom full of 5-year olds, were all done by mentally deranged people who got possession of legally obtained guns. Exactly what do you think "jail" as a deterrent would be to people like this, most of whom kill themselves once their rampage is completed ?

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    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Just curious cuj, but considering the last several mass shootings with assault (combat) rifles, including (but not limited to) the Giffords incident in Arizona, the Colorado theatre massacre and now the annihilation of a classroom full of 5-year olds, were all done by mentally deranged people who got possession of legally obtained guns. Exactly what do you think "jail" as a deterrent would be to people like this, most of whom kill themselves once their rampage is completed ?
    I think the idea of releasing mentally disturbed individuals back into society and "half-way" houses, and reducing mental health funding was, and is, a huge mistake. Instead we created more touchy feely programs, fund things like national endowment for the arts and crap like that instead of dealing with people with mental issues. These people - ready to go off at anytime - are out in society among us, when it he past most would have been institutionalized or under much closer care. The functioning ones like this kook in Newtown woudl have been in a Half-way house at least being monitored for changes instead of left at home. The ones in Half-way houses now, would still be institutionalized in most cases... but hey, we need that money to fund more give away programs for people perfectly capable of working.

    I also would not say that stealing a gun from somebody else is using a legally obtained gun. The guns were not his, he stole them.

    Oh, and please stop using the word Assault Rifle unless you actually know what it means. The media likes to call anything that looks mean an "assault rifle." All this guy had was a semi-auto rifle. That means you have to physically pull the trigger to fire each round/shot. With an assault rifle, you can hold down the trigger and get either a specified number burst of shots, or full auto, depending on the setting. A semi-auto is no more dangerous than the average hunting rifle, it just looks more aggressive in appearance, and most are made to look like their Assault Rifle counterpart. They are a little easier to maintain, since there isn't a lot of wood on them, and less likely to get banged up than wood stocks. That's the real difference, replacing wood stocks with plastics and polymers. Internally, and operationally, they're the same.

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    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flugschlafen View Post
    I say crap laws because they only affect non-private sales of firearms. They are crap laws because the guns-at-any-cost lobby prevents meaningful regulation. Guess which political majority they are?
    What new regulations do you want now? These guns were stolen by him, they were not legally obtained by him. New laws would not change that. Think a little before legislating with your bleeding heart.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flugschlafen View Post
    I can't temember the last time I had a firearm related background check to buy a gun. For the most part across the country, gun owners bear little responsibility for the securing weapons and thereby their misuse.
    Where are you buying guns without either a license/permit, or a form being sent for a background check. Securing weapons; Now you're going to blame the victim of the theft for the misuse? So, if I steal your car and run somebody down, you're okay with being responsible then.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flugschlafen View Post
    Tracking private sales and requirement for that sale to pass the same background check (and psychological checks), plus the previously mentioned requirements for securing weapons would go a long way towards keeping guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them while allowing sane, law abiding citizens to continue to enjoy their sport.
    While there may be some states that do none of that, most states already do some or all of that. Since we're talking about CT, why don't we look at their laws, and figure out how many this guy broke. Passing more laws only effects the law abiding citizen, laws have NEVER effected the criminals or those disposed to committing criminal acts.

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    Registered User Divine Wind's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flugschlafen View Post
    Nobody here suggests taking away guns, only sensible regulation (not the useless crap we have now) to make sure that we know who is buying, who is selling, and that the guy taking clozapine or with a history of depression shouldn't get one.
    Maybe not here, not yet, but many on political forums have suggested banning all guns, some types of guns (many don't know the difference between a full auto assault rife and semi-auto rifle that looks like an assault rifle), high capacity magazines and other nonsense. These same people, all of whom are on the left (and usually the far left), refuse to acknowledge that we have a mental health problem, not a gun problem.

    The problem isn't millions of honest and innocent gun owners, but the mentally ill who can't access or refuse treatment having access to firearms. I agree with you on sensible regulation. Many of those regulations already exist. It's more of an enforcement issue. If we need more regulation, it is in the area of mental illness plus the dissemination of information on who is mentally ill and, therefore, unable to purchase or access firearms.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    I think the idea of releasing mentally disturbed individuals back into society and "half-way" houses, and reducing mental health funding was, and is, a huge mistake. Instead we created more touchy feely programs, fund things like national endowment for the arts and crap like that instead of dealing with people with mental issues. These people - ready to go off at anytime - are out in society among us, when it he past most would have been institutionalized or under much closer care. The functioning ones like this kook in Newtown woudl have been in a Half-way house at least being monitored for changes instead of left at home. The ones in Half-way houses now, would still be institutionalized in most cases... but hey, we need that money to fund more give away programs for people perfectly capable of working.

    I also would not say that stealing a gun from somebody else is using a legally obtained gun. The guns were not his, he stole them.

    Oh, and please stop using the word Assault Rifle unless you actually know what it means. The media likes to call anything that looks mean an "assault rifle." All this guy had was a semi-auto rifle. That means you have to physically pull the trigger to fire each round/shot. With an assault rifle, you can hold down the trigger and get either a specified number burst of shots, or full auto, depending on the setting. A semi-auto is no more dangerous than the average hunting rifle, it just looks more aggressive in appearance, and most are made to look like their Assault Rifle counterpart. They are a little easier to maintain, since there isn't a lot of wood on them, and less likely to get banged up than wood stocks. That's the real difference, replacing wood stocks with plastics and polymers. Internally, and operationally, they're the same.
    Many of these individuals never made it to "halfway houses" and the like, so that's of little benefit as an argument of deterrent. The guns were obtained legally and like so many others were not strictly secured and/or controlled. As for "assault rifle" ?

    From a practical standpoint, a gun doesn't have to be fully automatic to be considered assault capable. Semi-automatic weapons of this nature with high muzzle velocities and the ability to nonetheless discharge many rounds very rapidly easily qualify and I dont know what this baloney about wood and plastic has to do with anything and is meaningless to the issue.

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    Registered User Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    As for "assault rifle" ?

    From a practical standpoint, a gun doesn't have to be fully automatic to be considered assault capable. Semi-automatic weapons of this nature with high muzzle velocities and the ability to nonetheless discharge many rounds very rapidly easily qualify and I dont know what this baloney about wood and plastic has to do with anything and is meaningless to the issue.
    You just described about 4 out 5 of my hunting rifles. Semi-auto, high velocity, magazine fed..... So, your ban on "assault weapons" covers just about every hunting and sporting rifle out there....

    An assault rifle is one that is capable of discharging more than one round on each trigger pull. None of the weapons used in any of those crimes fit that definition. The ONLY thing they have in common with an assault weapon is their exterior appearance.

    These individuals never made it into programs because its more important to liberals to use our tax money to fund abortions, provide needles to drug abusers, create more touchy freely BS programs, and allow unemployment to go for 99 weeks for able bodied people. The money to address the mentally disturbed is there, it's just being diverted to BS programs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    You just described about 4 out 5 of my hunting rifles. Semi-auto, high velocity, magazine fed..... So, your ban on "assault weapons" covers just about every hunting and sporting rifle out there....

    An assault rifle is one that is capable of discharging more than one round on each trigger pull. None of the weapons used in any of those crimes fit that definition. The ONLY thing they have in common with an assault weapon is their exterior appearance.

    These individuals never made it into programs because its more important to liberals to use our tax money to fund abortions, provide needles to drug abusers, create more touchy freely BS programs, and allow unemployment to go for 99 weeks for able bodied people. The money to address the mentally disturbed is there, it's just being diverted to BS programs.
    Yours or the previously accepted term of "assault weapon" is meaningless to those on the other end of a non-auto .223 M-16 type weapon. They usually have nowhere to run even if they are fast enough. The average pistol isn't much of a defense either. I realize its pointless to discuss these issues with the extreme right as they usually pile on irrelevant subjects like abortion or other explanations of why the world (and this country) are insane and wouldn't be so if everyone just conform to the agenda of the extreme right as a foundation for the solutions to all problems, so lets just let it lie at that. I'm not advocating the dastardly government attempting to rip your arsenal from your cold, dead hands, just highlighting another POV and the fact your "solutions" aren't solutions.

    Perhaps we should follow many of the extreme right and issue MAC-10's, Glocks and Bushmasters to all citizens on their 8th birthday that way everyone can have a chance at self-defense like the old west ? Sounds great, but the U.S. today isn't the old west, but more resemblance of Hue in January 1968. Personally, I don't think gun laws will change because of this latest massacre as the body count isn't high enough. Jet like the airline industry, real change never occurs until that count reaches a certain level. Another massacre or two and we may be there. Since they are now occurring with greater and greater frequency, perhaps by the end of 2013 ?

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