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Thread: Round 5 Negotiations

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    In all seriousness though, all this was going to happen regardless. The last video from the ORD town hall speaks volumes because doug continually states nothing will happen unless we adopt a 12/4 payscale.

    He keeps referencing the word "competitive" and how it's not fair to mainline and every other employee group that we are simply too expensive. At this point we should all have a bailout plan and just be prepared to walk away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonRR View Post
    I remember. I was never a fan of not having a fleet guarantee. However; you don't get everything you want in bankruptcy proceedings and even now you seem to like our eight year bankruptcy contract. Don't be a hipocryte you are one of the ones that created this mess. You decided to tell everyone that no one can staff the jets and as PSA doubles its size in less than a year, you convinuently want to blame it on the past administration, as far as I'm concerned they weren't any worse than you all are.

    To prove your hipocrasy why aren't you yelling out loud all the booze that your fellow alpa brothers decided to lavishly enjoy while we have pilots in our airline facing displacements and downgrades?

    I don't care about simpathy in here. At the end of the day this is the insanity of your pilot shortage while every other bottom feeder is getting our flying and moving forward because they do not care about the 12 and 4 or any other concession, you just want to continue shifting the blame. You are as guilty as the clowns that were part of team tony.
    hipocrite? simpathy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonRR View Post
    We have a contract that isn't worth anything without aircraft. Time for you to stop posting until you can figure out that displacing, closing bases and losing block hour is much more of a concession than anything presented to this pilot group up this point. In the meantime managment is winning and reaping millions in the process.

    People like you can only see what they want to see. Maybe one day you will wake up from your wet dream and then realize that you are just too dumb. After all you are only a divine wind.
    But I am not:
    Ok, question. Let's say for one minute that they reach an agreement, what is their plan to staff envoy, and if they cannot attract pilots and attrition continues... then what happens? And for the rest of you I am more senior than this AllisonRR and a hell NO, so please allow me to take care of his yes vote.
    I always tell the truth. Even when I lie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    But I am not:
    Ok, question. Let's say for one minute that they reach an agreement, what is their plan to staff envoy, and if they cannot attract pilots and attrition continues... then what happens? And for the rest of you I am more senior than this AllisonRR and a hell NO, so please allow me to take care of his yes vote.
    This isn't about seniority. PSA seems to be able to attract pilots, why wouldn't envoy? We still have new hires even as you don't want to accept it. In this forums every single one of the chest pounders NO voters never make a good argument. Your best shot is to bully those that think differently.

    If the company has new jets that they can staff all they can do is raise the bonuses or institute new pay scales to attract new hires.

    With the current contract we have "ZERO" leverage to achieve anything. The evidence is here, after repeated NOs we are in way worse bargaining position that we ever were. Look at the tone from the Union!

    If a deal ever comes to the pilots don't expect more than 100 guaranteed hulls.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonRR View Post
    This isn't about seniority. PSA seems to be able to attract pilots, why wouldn't envoy? We still have new hires even as you don't want to accept it. In this forums every single one of the chest pounders NO voters never make a good argument. Your best shot is to bully those that think differently.

    If the company has new jets that they can staff all they can do is raise the bonuses or institute new pay scales to attract new hires.

    With the current contract we have "ZERO" leverage to achieve anything. The evidence is here, after repeated NOs we are in way worse bargaining position that we ever were. Look at the tone from the Union!

    If a deal ever comes to the pilots don't expect more than 100 guaranteed hulls.
    I have to butt in. Look at the endeavor deal and ask yourself if they can get pilots. PSA is getting pilots because of the quick upgrades. Envoy will never have a quick upgrade so how do we attract pilots? The only way to do it is with an attractive flow which the company won't provide. Without a flow that will get pilots to come here we will shrink and without a fleet plan we will be screwed. If we signed a deal with those two items the way they are we would end up taking concessions and still shrinking until we become non existent. If we shrink might as well shrink without losing anything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonRR View Post
    This isn't about seniority. PSA seems to be able to attract pilots, why wouldn't envoy? We still have new hires even as you don't want to accept it. In this forums every single one of the chest pounders NO voters never make a good argument. Your best shot is to bully those that think differently.

    If the company has new jets that they can staff all they can do is raise the bonuses or institute new pay scales to attract new hires.

    With the current contract we have "ZERO" leverage to achieve anything. The evidence is here, after repeated NOs we are in way worse bargaining position that we ever were. Look at the tone from the Union!

    If a deal ever comes to the pilots don't expect more than 100 guaranteed hulls.
    Personally, I don't see this as a good argument. Hey, you're free to think like you do, but it's unrealistic to think most will too and I think that's your frustration. You make the same desperate pleas on multiple forums and have gotten essentially nowhere.

    If you were making good arguments, you'd convert more minds. Those resisting your baseless assertions aren't "bullying" you, just rejecting you.

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    He's just a victim surrounded by 70% of people that are stupid, apparently.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonRR View Post
    This isn't about seniority. PSA seems to be able to attract pilots, why wouldn't envoy? We still have new hires even as you don't want to accept it. In this forums every single one of the chest pounders NO voters never make a good argument. Your best shot is to bully those that think differently.

    If the company has new jets that they can staff all they can do is raise the bonuses or institute new pay scales to attract new hires.

    With the current contract we have "ZERO" leverage to achieve anything. The evidence is here, after repeated NOs we are in way worse bargaining position that we ever were. Look at the tone from the Union!

    If a deal ever comes to the pilots don't expect more than 100 guaranteed hulls.
    You only answered half the question, NOW answer the other half. And after you do I have few more but only if you are willing to answer with the truth and you can provide verifiable facts. I will ask and you will answer, let's have some fun with the truth.
    Last edited by NoOtPilot; 11-09-2014 at 09:31 AM.

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    Is it true the negotiations broke off......again???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Francisco211 View Post
    Is it true the negotiations broke off......again???
    According to ORD FO rep, on facebook, no. That's not true.

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    That's to bad

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonRR View Post
    This isn't about seniority. PSA seems to be able to attract pilots, why wouldn't envoy? We still have new hires even as you don't want to accept it. In this forums every single one of the chest pounders NO voters never make a good argument. Your best shot is to bully those that think differently.

    If the company has new jets that they can staff all they can do is raise the bonuses or institute new pay scales to attract new hires.

    With the current contract we have "ZERO" leverage to achieve anything. The evidence is here, after repeated NOs we are in way worse bargaining position that we ever were. Look at the tone from the Union!

    If a deal ever comes to the pilots don't expect more than 100 guaranteed hulls.
    There's no way you're naive enough to think that Doug will simply institute pay raises to attract new hires. Say we accept a 12/4, we still can't defeat attrition, so in spite of all this negotiating Doug and gang is going to just come back and offer raises? Did you not watch his numerous videos where he repeatedly says its not fair to other employee groups that we get growth by not being competitive? The last deal offered those who still work here an insulting $10,000 bonus 4k up front the rest 5 years or date of flow. How cheap can one possibly be????

    Doug's plan is obvious, and we'd be fools to think he doesn't know about the shortage of pilots. He clearly has "ZERO" respect for us. His plan is to sucker pilots into a long term cheap contract that shows insane profits for his shareholders by using the age old adage of "Everyone else is doing it so why aren't you?". Here's my question, why are there negotiations? I thought the company was never coming back? It was my understanding after the last vote down the company would not be coming back until OCT 15. Why is his team so desperately trying to shove a 12/4 down our throats? There has to be a reason.

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    So, in other words, there is no real update on these negotiations?

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonRR View Post
    I remember. I was never a fan of not having a fleet guarantee. However; you don't get everything you want in bankruptcy proceedings and even now you seem to like our eight year bankruptcy contract. Don't be a hipocryte you are one of the ones that created this mess. You decided to tell everyone that no one can staff the jets and as PSA doubles its size in less than a year, you convinuently want to blame it on the past administration, as far as I'm concerned they weren't any worse than you all are.

    To prove your hipocrasy why aren't you yelling out loud all the booze that your fellow alpa brothers decided to lavishly enjoy while we have pilots in our airline facing displacements and downgrades?

    I don't care about simpathy in here. At the end of the day this is the insanity of your pilot shortage while every other bottom feeder is getting our flying and moving forward because they do not care about the 12 and 4 or any other concession, you just want to continue shifting the blame. You are as guilty as the clowns that were part of team tony.

    Look, if you're going to try to quote me; get it right. The nobody can staff it was always meant at the arrival of the new jets next year. You guys took a soudbyte and have misquoted and misdirected it. Others may have taken that and tried to apply it to current flying, but I do not think the union ever did that. Very much the opposite, we repeated the company's intention to diversify their feed. The only way to do that is to reduce Envoy flying while growing the others. Go find anything from the union that says they would not diversify their feed. Stop attributing quotes and claims from others to me or to the union.

    Like the bankruptcy contract? I hate it. But it's better than the raping you guys left us in position to take now.

    I never complained about booze. I complained about policy being violated and member money being misappropriated. That MEC passed a rule due to serious budget shortfalls, then violated their own rule at our expense. That has not happened under this MEC, and if it has, please point out the rule that was violated.

    "insanity of your pilot shortage" Hummm, interesting. Have you heard the new reason WHY the company is refusing to provide a fleet committment?
    You may wish to rethink your position.
    Last edited by Cujo665; 11-09-2014 at 11:53 AM.
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    What part of don't talk about negotiations do you morons not understand? No wonder they can find cheap labor pilots cause half of you are dumbasses that can't remember what this post was originally about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CR7 DRIVER View Post
    I have to butt in. Look at the endeavor deal and ask yourself if they can get pilots. PSA is getting pilots because of the quick upgrades. Envoy will never have a quick upgrade so how do we attract pilots? The only way to do it is with an attractive flow which the company won't provide. Without a flow that will get pilots to come here we will shrink and without a fleet plan we will be screwed. If we signed a deal with those two items the way they are we would end up taking concessions and still shrinking until we become non existent. If we shrink might as well shrink without losing anything.
    Tell that to the guys that are being downgraded.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Look, if you're going to try to quote me; get it right. The nobody can staff it was always meant at the arrival of the new jets next year. You guys took a soudbyte and have misquoted and misdirected it. Others may have taken that and tried to apply it to current flying, but I do not think the union ever did that. Very much the opposite, we repeated the company's intention to diversify their feed. The only way to do that is to reduce Envoy flying while growing the others. Go find anything from the union that says they would not diversify their feed. Stop attributing quotes and claims from others to me or to the union.

    Like the bankruptcy contract? I hate it. But it's better than the raping you guys left us in position to take now.

    I never complained about booze. I complained about policy being violated and member money being misappropriated. That MEC passed a rule due to serious budget shortfalls, then violated their own rule at our expense. That has not happened under this MEC, and if it has, please point out the rule that was violated.

    "insanity of your pilot shortage" Hummm, interesting. Have you heard the new reason WHY the company is refusing to provide a fleet committment?
    You may wish to rethink your position.
    Ray; it wasn't a sound bite it was what you said to us verbally when you were in the crew room last spring. It was what you repeatedly wrote in these forums. Definitely not sound bites.

    The policy isn't being violated? The MEC breaks policy, re-wtites, and follows what it wants. You were however the president on snack gate witch-hunt! But all of the sudden when you have an MEC that thinks like you you don't point out policy violations. Or did the MEC chair approve that Del Pedro should go to the BOD? Yet he was there when rooms at the diplomat are over U$300.00 a night? Or how about approving the hospitality suite? Where our alpa brtheren were having an open bar, doesn't that go against the spirit of the policies you championed for? These are politics and I honestly don't care what you do with the money alpa wants authorizes you to spend. It just shows that you want to rationalize your own opinions.

    You also wrote here that the deal coming to us was better than anuthing we had seen, now you are saying that there isn't even a fleet guarantee? Now if the company is so worried about the shortage why aren't they offering better pay?

    No flow and no fleet plan guarantees is a NO from me so all the bullies can be happy about that. I am not desperate or frustrated about my particular situation.I do however feel bad about guys that are looking as stagnation and downgrades for the forseable future without a clear solution.

    If the CRJs do leave and if they keep parking Embraers you will not be a CA much longer and that is sad, many of us know how hard it was for you to upgrade.

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    stop with the personal attacks....this is just a forum.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllisonRR View Post
    Ray; it wasn't a sound bite it was what you said to us verbally when you were in the crew room last spring. It was what you repeatedly wrote in these forums. Definitely not sound bites.

    The policy isn't being violated? The MEC breaks policy, re-wtites, and follows what it wants. You were however the president on snack gate witch-hunt! But all of the sudden when you have an MEC that thinks like you you don't point out policy violations. Or did the MEC chair approve that Del Pedro should go to the BOD? Yet he was there when rooms at the diplomat are over U$300.00 a night? Or how about approving the hospitality suite? Where our alpa brtheren were having an open bar, doesn't that go against the spirit of the policies you championed for? These are politics and I honestly don't care what you do with the money alpa wants authorizes you to spend. It just shows that you want to rationalize your own opinions.

    You also wrote here that the deal coming to us was better than anuthing we had seen, now you are saying that there isn't even a fleet guarantee? Now if the company is so worried about the shortage why aren't they offering better pay?

    No flow and no fleet plan guarantees is a NO from me so all the bullies can be happy about that. I am not desperate or frustrated about my particular situation.I do however feel bad about guys that are looking as stagnation and downgrades for the forseable future without a clear solution.

    If the CRJs do leave and if they keep parking Embraers you will not be a CA much longer and that is sad, many of us know how hard it was for you to upgrade.
    If the CRJs do leave?!? Really?!
    We need to be ready for the bad
    news coming out next or few weeks ahead.
    This new deal was a way to set up our MEC to take
    the fault for all of this bad news. (Probably NY closing officially, PDT getting our 145s, and some other really bad crap)
    Our MEC is being bullied by management and they need your support.
    What ever is going on right now it's not called Negotiations. It's take it or leave it again. It guarantees 40 airframes that's only about 550 pilots. There you have your "yes" vote. For any guy junior to that number this deal means nothing. Envoy is done, no matter what. We need to accept reality and seek other opirtunities. I believe they will use the pilot group and our MEC as the blame of this failure.
    We can either vote yes, take a small burning candle up the butt and slowly watch this place burn down, or we can stick with our NO and torch the place.
    I personally don't like candles.

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