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Thread: MEC meeting 7-31-14

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    whomever is spreading rumors of double digit IAI is full of it. I've seen the numbers.
    It's all fuzzy math right now anyway since the actual calculation is not done until later this year, and things could change before then; but if ran today it was less than 1%


    2. IAI adjustments effective 1/1/2013 and 1/1/2014 will not be made for Captains or First Officers, however, the computation will be made, and any amount above one and one half percent (1.5%) in either or both years, will be applied to the Captain and First Officer pay rates in 2015. This adjustment satisfies all previous overpayments and no such amounts shall be applied against future increases pursuant to Section 3.P.4.

    3. The 1.5% minimum will not apply in 2017 or subsequent years.

    b. Wage rates will be calculated by November 1 of each year and will become effective on January 1 of the following year.

    Effective: Hourly Per Diem: 1/1/2013 $1.80

    The hourly per diem rate will increase by five ($0.05) cents effective January 1st each year thereafter.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    2. IAI adjustments effective 1/1/2013 and 1/1/2014 will not be made for Captains or First Officers, however, the computation will be made, and any amount above one and one half percent (1.5%) in either or both years, will be applied to the Captain and First Officer pay rates in 2015. This adjustment satisfies all previous overpayments and no such amounts shall be applied against future increases pursuant to Section 3.P.4.

    3. The 1.5% minimum will not apply in 2017 or subsequent years.

    b. Wage rates will be calculated by November 1 of each year and will become effective on January 1 of the following year.

    Effective: Hourly Per Diem: 1/1/2013 $1.80

    The hourly per diem rate will increase by five ($0.05) cents effective January 1st each year thereafter.
    So if I read this correctly there is no retroactive rate change for 2013/2014 because IAI didn't increase more than 1.5%.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NoOtPilot View Post
    2. IAI adjustments effective 1/1/2013 and 1/1/2014 will not be made for Captains or First Officers, however, the computation will be made, and any amount above one and one half percent (1.5%) in either or both years, will be applied to the Captain and First Officer pay rates in 2015. This adjustment satisfies all previous overpayments and no such amounts shall be applied against future increases pursuant to Section 3.P.4.

    3. The 1.5% minimum will not apply in 2017 or subsequent years.

    b. Wage rates will be calculated by November 1 of each year and will become effective on January 1 of the following year.

    Effective: Hourly Per Diem: 1/1/2013 $1.80

    The hourly per diem rate will increase by five ($0.05) cents effective January 1st each year thereafter.
    Perfect, so even if its just The minimum of 1.5% per year are we looking at 3%?! I think it's greater than 1.5 per anum. We should at least know the IAI for 2013 since it's calculated every November. Let's keep asking about this!!! How much are we giving up forks?!

  4. #44
    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockysuave View Post
    Perfect, so even if its just The minimum of 1.5% per year are we looking at 3%?! I think it's greater than 1.5 per anum. We should at least know the IAI for 2013 since it's calculated every November. Let's keep asking about this!!! How much are we giving up forks?!
    IIRC, 2013 was calculated around .68%

    This is not the big thing some are running around claiming it is. Reality is what it is. If RAH had accepted their new rates it still would have bumped up the IAI to a number that was still less than 1.5%
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    IIRC, 2013 was calculated around .68%

    This is not the big thing some are running around claiming it is. Reality is what it is. If RAH had accepted their new rates it still would have bumped up the IAI to a number that was still less than 1.5%
    So indeed, it looks like the term "opener" wasn't a misstatement. The MEC's counter is going to management and negotiations are underway. Unless the MEC's counter offers no concessions and Parker and Glass are now willing to concede to an agreement that offers no concessions, it seems the only obstacle will be how to package another concessionary TA to the pilots. Cujo said the "offer" which actually was an opener was crap. Therefore significant improvements to that must be presented to Glass to make uncrap. However, it appears the MEC is crafting their response to meet what management wants and thus it's clear management is controlling the process and apparently the MEC. It's obvious the MEC wants a deal even more then management and management knows this as therefore is confident in their control.

    Will the NEC's counter be a take-it-or-leave-it response. If not, that counter will be countered again and that means the MEC's framework for an agreement will be diluted.

    This is how management slowly runs the football in their direction frequently with the opposing team even being aware they are losing yardage when they are.

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    The MEC (WS) is about to be called over to American.....do you think that was part of AAGs plan. We finally got a good MEC that would stand our ground and they need to move him out??? Cool what a process.....so whose on tap to complete this process for us???

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    Quote Originally Posted by sully7777 View Post
    The MEC (WS) is about to be called over to American.....do you think that was part of AAGs plan. We finally got a good MEC that would stand our ground and they need to move him out??? Cool what a process.....so whose on tap to complete this process for us???
    No conspiracy, it's just his time. Seniority.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mephesto View Post
    No conspiracy, it's just his time. Seniority.
    Agreed. There is no "conspiracy". Instead, what is really occurring is a repetition of the same kabuki dance that's been consistently played for decades and it's a dance to music selected by management. If management is still running the play list and this pilot groups union continues to be willing to get on the floor and jitterbug to it, then odds are the same result will occur that's always occurred in the past.

    The parties met. Supposedly management "discussed" their needs and listened to what the MEC needs as a minimum to sell to their pilots (AKA, "standing behind it"). That's management controlling, not the MEC. The proof ?

    A "crap" opener.

    Now the MEC carries the crap back to Euless and decides what will be just enough to give it a pleasant aroma. It can't be too much or management won't accept it. So, it's just enough. Management knows the MEC's response will be within the boundaries THEY set. Management then counters again and removed some of the perfume which means there will be unpleasant whiffs for some here. That is unless it's a TIOLI counter, which isn't likely as the MEC wants a deal. So, ultimately the TA that management knows the MEC wants as much as them will indeed have some concessionary aspects, but will be sold (it will HAVE to be) as getting more then giving and that's how management gets MORE concessions from a pilot group that just gave them.

    The B-scale (12/4) was not an option in the past. Will it now be ? If it is, that's one clue to what really just happened. It will be interesting to see what concessions will result in the inevitable next TA (the MEC will NOT walk away from this negotiating process and management knows that too). My guess is future Envoyers will indeed be tossed under the bus with 12/4 (something the MEC previously wouldn't consider), but it will be sold as something they'll never see as they'll be at AA by then (also something NO ONE can guarantee), and automatic PBS.

    Most pilots here have no idea how this game is played to the interests of management and are therefore frustrated as why the same things keep happening. In fact, most don't even know the game exists. In even more fact (and this is the most disturbing part), many actually rationalize a game they are unaware of, if it shows them some things THEY think will work for them. Letter 3 was a classic example of this game. Management ultimately gave very little and got HUGE returns from a bunch of clueless pilots who in retrospect got the shaft. It just took a decade to look back to be able to see it for what it really was. Has that reality modified any change of pilot behavior ?

    Nope. A whole new bunch of dancers are now ready themselves to get up on the floor and shake their booty's to that same old moldy oldie with likely the same result, even if they don't know it or worse yet suspect it and rationalize dancing to it anyway. I see exactly what I saw in 1997 happening all over again and it's sad.

    If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 08-03-2014 at 07:25 AM.

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    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    Agreed. There is no "conspiracy". Instead, what is really occurring is a repetition of the same kabuki dance that's been consistently played for decades and it's a dance to music selected by management. If management is still running the play list and this pilot groups union continues to be willing to get on the floor and jitterbug to it, then odds are the same result will occur that's always occurred in the past.

    The parties met. Supposedly management "discussed" their needs and listened to what the MEC needs as a minimum to sell to their pilots (AKA, "standing behind it"). That's management controlling, not the MEC. The proof ?

    A "crap" opener.

    Now the MEC carries the crap back to Euless and decides what will be just enough to give it a pleasant aroma. It can't be too much or management won't accept it. So, it's just enough. Management knows the MEC's response will be within the boundaries THEY set. Management then counters again and removed some of the perfume which means there will be unpleasant whiffs for some here. That is unless it's a TIOLI counter, which isn't likely as the MEC wants a deal. So, ultimately the TA that management knows the MEC wants as much as them will indeed have some concessionary aspects, but will be sold (it will HAVE to be) as getting more then giving and that's how management gets MORE concessions from a pilot group that just gave them.

    The B-scale (12/4) was not an option in the past. Will it now be ? If it is, that's one clue to what really just happened. It will be interesting to see what concessions will result in the inevitable next TA (the MEC will NOT walk away from this negotiating process and management knows that too). My guess is future Envoyers will indeed be tossed under the bus with 12/4 (something the MEC previously wouldn't consider), but it will be sold as something they'll never see as they'll be at AA by then (also something NO ONE can guarantee), and automatic PBS.

    Most pilots here have no idea how this game is played to the interests of management and are therefore frustrated as why the same things keep happening. In fact, most don't even know the game exists. In even more fact (and this is the most disturbing part), many actually rationalize a game they are unaware of, if it shows them some things THEY think will work for them. Letter 3 was a classic example of this game. Management ultimately gave very little and got HUGE returns from a bunch of clueless pilots who in retrospect got the shaft. It just took a decade to look back to be able to see it for what it really was. Has that reality modified any change of pilot behavior ?

    Nope. A whole new bunch of dancers are now ready themselves to get up on the floor and shake their booty's to that same old moldy oldie with likely the same result, even if they don't know it or worse yet suspect it and rationalize dancing to it anyway. I see exactly what I saw in 1997 happening all over again and it's sad.

    If you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you've always gotten.
    Good grief, give it a rest.
    This MEC and pilot group has voted no more times in the last year than in the previous 20.
    __________________________________________________ __

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    Umm, I know what I require for a Yes vote and I don't care if it's within the managments boundaries. If it's not within MY boundaries, they will gladly receive a No vote for their desperately needed deal. I think we can all think for ourselves here.

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    Cujo are there any discussions taking place about releasing our counter offer to the pilots, to put some pressure on management to take the deal on our terms?

    I think we have a pilot group that is largely fed up, and anymore nonsense from management, could seriously dampen morale, further increasing attrition, and putting a little more pressure on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reservist View Post
    Cujo are there any discussions taking place about releasing our counter offer to the pilots, to put some pressure on management to take the deal on our terms?

    I think we have a pilot group that is largely fed up, and anymore nonsense from management, could seriously dampen morale, further increasing attrition, and putting a little more pressure on them.
    I have wondered this as well, if the proposal were made public to the pilots, if our reaction could actually be used as a positive effect on negotiations. I have been told many times that our debate can only be negative, but if we see a proposal I have no doubt that there will be people who still don't find if good enough and we would have to argue those merits. That way, if mgmt cr@ps on it at all, we're already primed to rail against it. Why not turn our public forums into an asset? Perhaps I just don't know enough and it isn't possible, but it seems somewhat reasonable to me that we could turn the tables if we new what the counter was.
    Last edited by copycopy; 08-03-2014 at 09:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Good grief, give it a rest.
    This MEC and pilot group has voted no more times in the last year than in the previous 20.
    ......and yet nothing has changed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by copycopy View Post
    I have wondered this as well, if the proposal were made public to the pilots, if our reaction could actually be used as a positive effect on negotiations. I have been told many times that our debate can only be negative, but if we see a proposal I have no doubt that there will be people who still don't find if good enough and we would have to argue those merits. That way, if mgmt cr@ps on it at all, we're already primed to rail against it. Why not turn our public forums into an asset? Perhaps I just don't know enough and it isn't possible, but it seems somewhat reasonable to me that we could turn the tables if we new what the counter was.
    30% of the pilots voted yes for the last concessionary TA. They'll all vote for a slightly sweeter smelling one and a certain percentage who voted no will convert to yes for various reasons. The question is will it be another 20% + 1 ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    30% of the pilots voted yes for the last concessionary TA. They'll all vote for a slightly sweeter smelling one and a certain percentage who voted no will convert to yes for various reasons. The question is will it be another 20% + 1 ?
    Pretty sure you're wrong on this one. That 30% has more than likely shrunk to around 15%. Quite a few of the yes voters have seen that the company is/was full of shlt in their threats. Since turning the TA down, only 20 planes have been awarded. Remember before the "emergency TA", the company was only a mere hours away from a huge announcement that would have devastating consequences? What ever happened to that? Nothing. Remember how they said if we voted down the TA, they would NOT come back? What ever happened to that? They're back. You can only threaten so much before you have to back it up. Even the weak can see that. The longer this drags out, the less credibility the company has, and the more our group's resolve grows.

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    Hello NY

    DALLAS MEC UPDATE
    The MEC meeting the past two days was very productive. In my opinion, the offer from the company did not reflect the spirit of the informal discussions which had lead to their offer. In spite of that, the MEC worked for two long days to craft the tenants of what a proposal that both the MEC and the pilot group would support should look like. That information was provided in detail to our negotiators. They will draft a counter proposal based upon our direction.


    PILOT UNITY EVENT & MEET-N-GREET

    UNITY EVENT
    On Wednesday, August 6th from 10AM until 2PM the NY LEC is sponsoring a pilot unity event at LGA. We will be conducting Informational Pamphleting/Picketing. The purpose of this event is to show unity and to educate the public that our industry currently has a pay shortage, not a pilot shortage. There are thousands of pilots available who simply choose to work elsewhere, in other fields or even in other countries, rather than work for poverty level wages and horrendous working conditions. The regional airline industry is the perfect example of corporate greed in America destroying a profession; then turning to their employees and government to bail out and subsidize their greed driven mistakes.

    Email Tom.Knox@alpa.org or Steve.Wills@alpa.org if you will be attending the Unity event portion of the day at all. We need an accurate count for the port authority, so even if you are only going to stop in for a few minutes, please email Tom & Steve.

    We will muster in the exit hallway near the upstairs food court that leads from the doors to the hanger complex. Do not come join the pamphleting/picketing on your own. You must meet with a Team Leader or Team Captain at either the food court area near Dunkin Donuts or the hallway from the hanger to the curb prior to joining the event. If you leave the event, please advise a Team Leader or Team Captain on your way out so a replacement volunteer may be sent. More detailed instructions will be forwarded as the event day approaches. We have invited pilots from other airlines to attend, and the response has been very good.


    MEET-N-GREET
    Your Envoy MEC leadership invites you to join them at the LaGuardia Plaza Hotel. All pilots are welcome and encouraged to attend.

    When: Wednesday: August 6, 2014
    Time: 4 to 7 pm EDT
    Where: LaGuardia Plaza Hotel
    104-04 Ditmars Blvd
    East Elmhurst, NY 11369
    718-457-6300

    Please RSVP before noon CDT on Tuesday, August 5th
    If you plan to attend the Meet-N-Greet portion of the day please RSVP to ENYUNITY@alpa.org or call 817-685-7474, select 4 when the auto-attendant answers. Please provide your name, ALPA or employee number, that it is for the NY event and how many will be in your party. Thank you.


    Fraternally,

    Raymond Igou
    ENY LEC121 Chairman
    ray.igou@alpa.org
    __________________________________________________ __

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim pickens View Post
    Pretty sure you're wrong on this one. That 30% has more than likely shrunk to around 15%. Quite a few of the yes voters have seen that the company is/was full of shlt in their threats. Since turning the TA down, only 20 planes have been awarded. Remember before the "emergency TA", the company was only a mere hours away from a huge announcement that would have devastating consequences? What ever happened to that? Nothing. Remember how they said if we voted down the TA, they would NOT come back? What ever happened to that? They're back. You can only threaten so much before you have to back it up. Even the weak can see that. The longer this drags out, the less credibility the company has, and the more our group's resolve grows.
    I'd love to be wrong. Of course all the points you make are true, but what did management just do (according to Cuj) with all that supposed knowledge of this groups apparent resolve ?

    Why, send over another crap offer.

    One has to ask given what's happened why they would do that ?

    Could it be to draw the MEC into an old and successful process that ultimately produces concessions ?

    Look, either one of two things is true. One, the MEC knows the pilots will not accept concessions and supposedly without them, there will be no carrot or two, management knows they will ultimately get them if they can va rationalized by the MEC. To get number two, they have to deftly manipulate and control the MEC without the MEC believing they are being manipulated and controlled. The opener was a crap offer and now the MEC must either produce a take-it-or-leave-it counter that has no concessions or agree to concessions in exchange for something in return like increased flow.

    Which do you think they will do ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    I'd love to be wrong. Of course all the points you make are true, but what did management just do (according to Cuj) with all that supposed knowledge of this groups apparent resolve ?

    Why, send over another crap offer.

    One has to ask given what's happened why they would do that ?

    Could it be to draw the MEC into an old and successful process that ultimately produces concessions ?

    Look, either one of two things is true. One, the MEC knows the pilots will not accept concessions and supposedly without them, there will be no carrot or two, management knows they will ultimately get them if they can va rationalized by the MEC. To get number two, they have to deftly manipulate and control the MEC without the MEC believing they are being manipulated and controlled. The opener was a crap offer and now the MEC must either produce a take-it-or-leave-it counter that has no concessions or agree to concessions in exchange for something in return like increased flow.

    Which do you think they will do ?
    I think we'd have best served our interests by walking away after the latest turd was presented. In my opinion, our union has always been open to talks and negotiations. Too open. Kinda like the new guy in the school house is always trying to put his/her mark in the red book, blue book, or checklists. A lot of the time it's meaningless, and hurts us more than anything. There is such thing as too much dialogue with the company. We should be forcing the company to fix the mess they've created. It's not our job to do it. Coming up with "creative" ways to make a shltty contract work is still going to land us a shltty contract. Wait until the company offers us improvements. Until that happens, we don't talk, and we sure as hell don't counter. That will ensure the attrition around here keeps up. They don't like that attrition. We need to be forcing their hand. We did it initially when Sprague put out the doom and gloom emails , along with the career progression campaigns, but those have drastically subsided. We saw how fast the company came back on the defensive as soon as that happened. Why stop?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Slim pickens View Post
    I think we'd have best served our interests by walking away after the latest turd was presented. In my opinion, our union has always been open to talks and negotiations. Too open. Kinda like the new guy in the school house is always trying to put his/her mark in the red book, blue book, or checklists. A lot of the time it's meaningless, and hurts us more than anything. There is such thing as too much dialogue with the company. We should be forcing the company to fix the mess they've created. It's not our job to do it. Coming up with "creative" ways to make a shltty contract work is still going to land us a shltty contract. Wait until the company offers us improvements. Until that happens, we don't talk, and we sure as hell don't counter. That will ensure the attrition around here keeps up. They don't like that attrition. We need to be forcing their hand. We did it initially when Sprague put out the doom and gloom emails , along with the career progression campaigns, but those have drastically subsided. We saw how fast the company came back on the defensive as soon as that happened. Why stop?
    This is absolutely correct, and this is the way to deal with someone like Glass. I would tell the company that we are done talking until improvements to our current are presented, and any participation by Glass is a non-starter given his last round of threats. Soon, our current contract will be a C-scale when compared to what other regionals will have to pay to find pilots. All AAG need to do is sit back and give us the planes. Soon enough it'll be the best deal out there...

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    0 Not allowed! Not allowed!
    Quote Originally Posted by Slim pickens View Post
    I think we'd have best served our interests by walking away after the latest turd was presented. In my opinion, our union has always been open to talks and negotiations. Too open. Kinda like the new guy in the school house is always trying to put his/her mark in the red book, blue book, or checklists. A lot of the time it's meaningless, and hurts us more than anything. There is such thing as too much dialogue with the company. We should be forcing the company to fix the mess they've created. It's not our job to do it. Coming up with "creative" ways to make a shltty contract work is still going to land us a shltty contract. Wait until the company offers us improvements. Until that happens, we don't talk, and we sure as hell don't counter. That will ensure the attrition around here keeps up. They don't like that attrition. We need to be forcing their hand. We did it initially when Sprague put out the doom and gloom emails , along with the career progression campaigns, but those have drastically subsided. We saw how fast the company came back on the defensive as soon as that happened. Why stop?
    Excellent. The old methods only worked for management.........every single time. Why go back to them ?

    Of course they're going to try and make it painful in the very short term. In the not so short term, like 18 months, it will be them feeling the pain. When management snaps their fingers and call for the MEC and they come running, it means the same people who used to be in control are still in control and that gives them confidence.

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