View Poll Results: How will you vote on the TA

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  • YES

    19 14.84%
  • NO

    109 85.16%
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Thread: How will you vote on the TA

  1. #81
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    abdul, how do you figure you make more with the ta than the current concessionary contract?
    many before you have said i am not going to be here long. guess what, i am still here, whatever the reason but not for not trying.
    Abdul, vote as you please, its your right. Sad thing this TA if passes you wont have to live with long, only lived under the last concessionary contrcat for 15 months, want to bet you will be giving up again in 18 months after the new shiny toy has arrived.
    Abdul, this is not singuraly directed at you, it is to all of those who are thinking of voting yes.
    Sir, can I have another.

  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by rockysuave View Post
    Abdul, The overall pattern of hiring will not change at the majors. PIC turbine is still what makes your marketable. Getting hired by a major and flowing to AA (if we are lucky) will eventually have the same average time. For now you should vote based on the industry demands, and if you think that's what we are worth I can't change your mind.
    Something being offered is better then nothing at least to me anyway. Like I said I don't like this at at all. Do we deserve better absolutely. Will we get better? Big unknown there.


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  3. #83
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    You've only seen one post from me because I don't troll these boards endlessly on my time off nor do I even have a subscription to Eagle Lounge. I've got way better things to do. I only posted earlier because someone asked for a yes voter to put up why he/she was voting yes.


    There are excellent reasons to vote no just as there are to vote yes. IMHO if you're not at least somewhat on the fence on this issue you haven't given it proper thought from both sides nor do you understand both sides. I fear a yes vote and I fear a no vote. (As I said earlier we are choosing between bad and less bad) but I fear an uninformed pre-determined vote more. (Eg. "I hate the company and they suck so I'm voting no" or "bright shiny airplanes...vote yes"). If your reason for voting they way you do is at heart as simple as one of those arguments then you haven't looked it over, you haven't gotten all the info out there, you haven't thought of the huge number of things that could happen either way.


    Like I said earlier, I'm 51% yes, maybe even 50.1%. I'll take a second a play devils advocate on some of the statements I've heard above.


    "What will you do if the flow stops?" ...We'll if the flow stops, that'll suck big time. If it stops due to economic calamity (ie fuel goes to $200/ barrel and we play 2008 out all over again) then we are screwed either way flow or no flow, yes or no. If the flow steps cuz AAG tries to screw us over, then unfortunately we are stuck with "fly now, grieve later" which will never change, but then we will sue the panties off AAG, win our day in court and get the difference in FO and CA pay over several years as punitive damages for each one of us (just an example). Also I mentioned earlier, right now our interests and the companies interests are aligned, they have shiny new jets, expensive Eagle captains to turn into AA FOs, a goal to attract as many pilots while they can so AA doesn't get screwed when the shortage hits them. For now that means up the flow thru as much as possible to clean house so as many new Eagle pilots are stuck as possible under this crap pay rates. Which allows me to get to PIC faster, go to a different major airline faster and bid AAG goodbye forever faster.


    "What will you do when the company comes next year asking for more concessions?" Excellent point and it's probably going to happen sometime. Right now we have no fleet plan, if we say yes, we'll have a fleet plan for 10 years. Next year when the company threatens to ComaairII us again, I'm going to say "we have a fleet plan for 10 years, kiss my a$$". Right now we don't have that written fleet plan to back us up and that is the only thing that allows the company to even think of coming after us. (Don't think they aren't smart enough to realize that as we'll) and if later the company does try to violate our fleet plan, we'll sue their panties off just like above.


    "they've got no pilots, who is going to fly these planes if not us?" Excellent point, and probably the strongest pro no argument out there. However it has been discussed greatly the lengths the company is willing to go to get out of signed agreements... Use some imagination and imagine how creative they could be to get out of something they don't even have an agreement for with an added bonus of screwing all us pilots. Skywest could take them, Mesa, or they'll form a new startup etc etc etc. If any of the other regionals get a big fat pay raise to take these airplanes that would suck...however SkyWest for example, will never have flow agreements with any major so while their highly paid regional pilots fight with the other 6000 guys looking for jobs at the majors they'll get stuck at the back of the coming hiring wave while I plan to be riding the front of the wave. Think of the difference between an early 98 hire and a late 2000 hire here at Eagle...those few years are going to be a BIG deal for the rest of my 30 years. I'm willing to gamble a little to get to a major a few years faster, if my gamble doesn't pan out then sucks for me but I know it's a gamble going in to it.


    "The plan is already to give us the planes, yes or no doesn't matter, they're coming here regardless" An argument very similar to the one above...you really think AAG has only one plan?!? You really think they didn't have backup plans on top of backup plans during bankruptcy?!? You really think if we tell them to "go to hell and take your planes with you" that they'll turn around a few months later and say "never mind, here you go"?!? I'm sure planes coming to eagle is plan A, it may even be plan B, but I guarantee there is a plan not far down the alphabet where we get nothing. I'm sure that plan won't work as we'll for them as they'd like but they'll try it anyway and by the time they realize it's not going to work, Eagle will be gone and we'll have to get jobs at Republic or SkyWest or wherever plan E takes the planes. As I said above I've got to much invested to start over at another regional. I hear pilots threatening to "burn this place down" the difference between us and management is that if we burn the place down, we get nothing , if management burns it down, they all walk away with golden parachutes and we still get nothing. We'll nothing but my unemployed and homeless dignity.


    As I said above this is not an easy decision, I HATE that we we're put here, I want to say "screw you" to management, I want to vote NO but I simply can't. Fear is definitely a factor, I freely admit that. I also admit chasing a carrot. I know neither of those tends to work out well. However I fear voting NO out of pure spite and anger as well. I fear voting no while simply hoping that some plan or shortage will save me. Voting out of spite or anger or ignorance works even less well then voting out of understanding fear. I didn't come to Eagle or AMR or AAG to stay, as much as I don't like it, a yes is the quickest way out of here for me.


    As much as I don't like it, count me a 51% yes.

  4. #84
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    My vote is NO. CA Joel Bohnsack AE

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    abdul, how do you figure you make more with the ta than the current concessionary contract?
    many before you have said i am not going to be here long. guess what, i am still here, whatever the reason but not for not trying.
    Abdul, vote as you please, its your right. Sad thing this TA if passes you wont have to live with long, only lived under the last concessionary contrcat for 15 months, want to bet you will be giving up again in 18 months after the new shiny toy has arrived.
    Abdul, this is not singuraly directed at you, it is to all of those who are thinking of voting yes.
    I figure making more with the hope of quicker upgrade. I know about when I'll upgrade now and it's sometime away. Roughly 4 years or more if this goes south with a no vote. If we vote no they will be back again anyway. The company doesn't need 80% to show its good. They need 50.000001. They will make minor tweaking and fear to eventually get it. I'm tired of the animosity between crewmembers. All we have is each other to watch our backs while were here. If we vote this crap in I doubt the company will be back for more a year or so from now. It's a money grab from the company and we all know it.


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  6. #86
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    Voting out if fear requires one to vote YES. Doesn't sound like anyone is voting NO out of fear. Voting YES just based on the fear of the unknown is like playing Russian roulette. (Is there a bullet in the chamber?). After reason all this stuff, it is safe to say that those voting NO, especially those with families, have taken the time to truly comprehend what is takin place in the industry, and have made the decision based upon knowledge of indisputable actions and events.

  7. #87
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    I could just be chasing a pipe dream. If this works then it will pay off big time. If I say no then what? With yes we have an empty promise that may be filled (some hope) whereas no one can tell me definitively what a no vote will do. It's all speculation.


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  8. #88
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    Fear , spite,anger. Really! You are the tip of the spear. They should and will fear US with a no vote . Parker and company get spread as much fear and be vindictive but he does not own this company . Share holders do. You say you are not planning on being hear for long but I will Bet you an acre of duck sh$& and I don't even own a duck that if you vote yes , good luck getting hired at another airline . I and you don't want to be the next PSA and a with a yes vote, that is exactly how we will be viewed in the eyes of our peers. Have some dignity and value!!

  9. #89
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    stuckpilot, if my gamble doesn't pan out then sucks for me but I know it's a gamble going in to it.
    sorry, it sucks for me because you voted yes for nothing more than maybes and I am stuck with the TA. Do I trust AAG, NO. Do i hate AAG, more than my wife, I think. AM I voting NO because of emotion, no. I am voting NO because I dont trust AAG to do what it says it will, but hold me to my contract. As you have seen with our current contract. They new and agreed to my contrcat when acquiring/merging with AMR as did the UCC agree to my contract and the bankruptcy judge.

    Sorry stuckpilot, your logic is scewed, maybe my logic is also. logic says you have a contract and alpa should force aag to honor it. if they want to shut this place it will take 5 years and you should have another job by then with out this AIP/TA. E175's are coming here whether we want them or not. AAG can fly them for CRJ rates for another 3 years. I refuse to give anything up anymore. ASA/EJT said NO, we said NO twice, RAH maybe saying NO. We have said NO twice and they have not done one thing, not saying they cant or wont but voting yes wont stop them either. Your choice but your point for are weak and dependent on maybes. Learn two words, FORCE MAJURE.
    Sir, can I have another.

  10. #90
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    What makes you think voting yes will make this industry better? What makes you think it won't affect you at the Majors? We are already doing mainline flying like Houston to*LA*on a CRJ. If we take this cut we are just that much cheaper. Why would they let you go to a main line carrier when they can keep you at regional pay doing the same flights? If you think voting yes won't follow you to the main line, if you even make it to the main line, you are fooling yourself.

  11. #91
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    Why do yes voters think management is so willing to shut down this company? It is their job too, and the vast majority of them don't have anywhere else to go. The shareholders would destroy them if they let this company shut down. It is all fear tactics. They want this company to survive as much as we do, they just want us to shoulder the risk. Don't let them get away with it.

  12. #92
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    Will Abdul, stuckpilot and others of their ilk freely admit to their new mainline airline pilot brethren (if they ever get there), that, yes, they will sell out principle and union interests if put in a potentially risky position or facing threat be it real or not for their own self-interest and preservation ?

    I think that's something the future mainline pilot group should be advised of prior to them going to any particular carrier, i.e., they aren't really union pilots, but independent contractors with a union pin like Glenna. If a pilot will rationalize selling out principle or the interest of a group for themselves now, they'll do it again. Ironically, in the future, many of these same young pilots when junior at their new mainline carriers will be the first to shout that it's unfair for those senior to sell their interests out to protect themselves, yet many of them did just that like Abdul and stuckpilot when they were looking out for themselves at the regional level.

    To you two and others of your ilk, if you do end up on the other side of the equation either here during a merger or asset acquisition and sold down the river by those that you merge with or are acquired by or if you end up junior at a mainline carrier and economic or other forces result in detriment, you'll have no right to complain. It will be unfortunate if that occurs. Therefore, would you be angry if I advocated throwing you under the bus to preserve myself and my interests if you ever came to AA ?

    That might be a very big problem in the future as more and more pilots like Abdul and stuckpilot filter to mainline carriers or even stay at their regionals by choice or not. This is becoming a new "it's about me" profession filled with self-concerned "every man for himself" types and thus in the future management will have an easy time turning the group against itself JUST as management is successfully doing here now. First they turned the leadership against itself and now they are working on the membership which is actually easier. It's sad that this profession is so fragmented, but you reap what you sow and pilots are sowing many bad things.
    Last edited by Beagleboy; 03-10-2014 at 10:43 PM.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abdul View Post
    I could just be chasing a pipe dream. If this works then it will pay off big time. If I say no then what? With yes we have an empty promise that may be filled (some hope) whereas no one can tell me definitively what a no vote will do. It's all speculation.

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    its all speculation with a yes vote. i have a current contract good for 7 years more. you are nullifing my contract not the company or me, you and those yes voters. you are watering down my already dripping contract not the company or me. All this for more maybes and empty promises. I would like to thank you.
    Sir, can I have another.

  14. #94
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    One more thing, why are you letting this employer have you by the balls!! I am a 6 year FO and I have 3 jobs . I like , you , have a wife , kids and all the trappings but I REFUSE to let these aZZHATS have that kind of control over me and my FAMILY. Just like aviatingin bad weather, you have to have an out. Get off your knees and do the what's right. I would submit that a yes vote will harm you and your family more than a no vote. It's all about control .

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    Maybe if they actually negotiated instead of demanding concessions in exchange for new planes maybe some of us would give a damn.

    Instead they come to the table demanding concessions or they will shut us down. Even after we already GAVE concessions during BK.

    If we are expected to act as professionals for all we do day in day out then we should be treated as such. Protecting the interests of both parties and not just dangling a flow to AA carrot might be a start.

    Why are we going to give a company who will go to great lengths to get out of signed agreements a TEN year concessionary contract. Seriously?

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    Quote Originally Posted by StuckPilot View Post
    I'm a senior FO expecting a CA slot soon (2007 hire)


    For me personally, a 'yes' vote is less bad for now. I'm not happy about it, and Ill have a sick feeling after voting probably but I can't look at my children's faces and risk my livelihood any more than I am being forced to already.

    Hey man, I feel your pain. I am a father myself and all I can say I would not be able to look at my daughters eyes one day knowing I was a coward and voted yes while company was making records profits and management getting mega bonuses. Grow a pair. Be a man. Jesus f. christ, do you think that noone in 87% of expressjet had a family to feed. Grow a pair be a man. Thats all I can tell you.

  17. #97
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    for those yes voters, go and try to explain yourselves that it is not fear or selfishness that drives you.

    By ross9238 on APC

    While most of what you said maybe true, I think you should also look at what the XJT pilots did recently. We have voted our equally industry leading TA down with an 83% resounding NO votes. This is not meant to toot our horn, but to let you know that this included the senior and mid term pilot group that you had mentioned.

    Any pilot who has some self worth and thinks themselves as a professional, has understood that the bar should not be lowered any more. No one that I know of, myself included, wants that pot of Gold that is entrusted to the corporate elite.

    The 83% from XJT would want our peers at Eagle and Republic to take a stand along with us to let our managements know that while they take their pay increases, we feel that we, as professionals, should be compensated properly with better pay, benefits and quality of life. I feel that if ever there was a time to take a stand for our profession, it is now. This is not only for us who are in the industry now but for those who will come after.
    Last edited by ardvark; 03-10-2014 at 10:56 PM.
    Sir, can I have another.

  18. #98
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    .05 cents Abdul?...do u realize we are automatically getting .05 cents a year now??? So, it is not just .05 cents loss but .35 cents loss over the life of the contract plus loss of pay raises and an amendment round....think about it bud..........

  19. #99
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    you get the company to guarantee in iron clad contract that all female flight attendants (yes sexist) to look and dress like this at work everyday here at eagle, then I am a yes vote. That is my buy off.

    http://jto.s3.amazonaws.com/wp-conte...b-20140311.jpg
    Sir, can I have another.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kutko View Post
    Hey man, I feel your pain. I am a father myself and all I can say I would not be able to look at my daughters eyes one day knowing I was a coward and voted yes while company was making records profits and management getting mega bonuses. Grow a pair. Be a man. Jesus f. christ, do you think that noone in 87% of expressjet had a family to feed. Grow a pair be a man. Thats all I can tell you.
    Major problem with these boards.... When there isn't any more valid points on either side people will personally offend each other. It is the reason why time and time again these boards are the worst gauges of what pilots really think.

    There were good points about both sides.

    Why we can debate them without taking cheap shots at others?

    If we are able to make a good case of the outcome on the NO scenario then we should give good arguments. BOLD letters and big decals aren't much of an argument.

    So let's start writing compelling arguments and not one line that say "I'm voting NO because the company sucks".

    We should vote NO because it will send a loud response to management about our substandard wages and poor quality of life as a regional pilot. We fly and do the same work that all the major airline pilots do yet we are abused day in and day out.

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