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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Many of the "824" will be displaced to First Officer status if a large "lay-off" occurs.
    Having TG and his clown posse as my FOs would almost be enough Karma to get me to stick around...

  2. #22
    Super Moderator Cujo665's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    You state "re-read it". What must I re-read? What signed legal document, by AA or the APA, that can be presented as evidence in an arbitration or a court, do you possess that binds American Airlines and the APA to the "824 preferential hiring" number? What signed legal document can you refer to that would bind or obligate a successor to AA (US Airways) to the "824 preferential hiring" number?

    You say "Flowing them through is better than laying them off". Why would AE Captains be laid off (presuming the "824" are AE captains)? The lay-offs will be First Officers. Many of the "824" will be displaced to First Officer status if a large "lay-off" occurs.
    Fine, I'll dig up the whole agreement for you... It isn't on my iPad, so it will have to wait till I'm home.

    And your last paragraph is exactly why you lose people in your other postings/emails/web board blog...

    Flowing them through is better than laying them off.... The "them" being "pilots." Flowing pilots through is better than laying pilots off. Yes, you could interpret it the way you did, but most people knew exactly what was being said.

    It's that type of twisting what was obvious to make your point that drives people away from your arguments. You make good points on a lot of things, then make something out of nothing, giving your opponents the opportunity to discredit you.

    I like most of your stuff, and you do see things that others don't, but then you go off on a tangent, or just plain go too far. Quit while you're ahead, you'll, do better.

  3. #23
    Registered User Grimreaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cujo665 View Post
    Fine, I'll dig up the whole agreement for you... It isn't on my iPad, so it will have to wait till I'm home.
    And your last paragraph is exactly why you lose people in your other postings/emails/web board blog...
    Flowing them through is better than laying them off.... The "them" being "pilots." Flowing pilots through is better than laying pilots off. Yes, you could interpret it the way you did, but most people knew exactly what was being said.
    It's that type of twisting what was obvious to make your point that drives people away from your arguments. You make good points on a lot of things, then make something out of nothing, giving your opponents the opportunity to discredit you.
    I like most of your stuff, and you do see things that others don't, but then you go off on a tangent, or just plain go too far. Quit while you're ahead, you'll, do better.
    Do not look to hard when you arrive at home. There is no signed legal document that binds American Airlines and the APA to "flow-through" the 824. That is not by accident or oversight.

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    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    was that not an arbitrator ruling to bring the total to about 1500
    to equal the total pilot group in 1997?

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Do not look to hard when you arrive at home. There is no signed legal document that binds American Airlines and the APA to "flow-through" the 824. That is not by accident or oversight.
    Well, good ole GM is back spreading happiness and cheer. The "signed, legal document" is called an ARBITRATION AWARD. It is BINDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    the 244 plus the 824 are via an arbitrators ruling, the pref hiring for all on property by oct 11 2011 is between alpa,aa and ae. do not think apa is part of it. but the 824 are on a weaker platform than the 244 with numbers, that is my opinion. they delayed the original 250 with numbers for an additional 4 years until the arbitrator ruled they should have been there and gave them years of credit for pay and retirement. once it was going to cost amr, they were transfered over faster than you flushed for a colonoscopy.

  7. #27
    Registered User 3holerr's Avatar
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    There's nothing weak about the 824. It was an arbitration AWARD, not an agreement. They cannot just decide to not comply because its inconvenient. Why does nobody seem to get this? Now we've got GM back stirring up his fantasy ideas because he lost is assss in court. Your battle to screw the rest of us is over. Stop being a sore loser and move on, your diatribes are getting old.

  8. #28
    Registered User Grimreaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3holerr View Post
    Well, good ole GM is back spreading happiness and cheer. The "signed, legal document" is called an ARBITRATION AWARD. It is BINDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    In his Opinion and Award on Remedy (April 9, 2010), in the Letter 3/Supplement W grievance FLO-0108, Arbitrator Nicolau opined as follows: QUOTE:"The affected Parties are directed to enter into a preferential hiring agreement pursuant to which American, at the time hiring resumes, will offer to 824 Eagle Captains, including Eagle Rights Captain, one out of every two new hire positions in a new hire class in order of Eagle seniority, subject to the following limitation. Eagle is to make every attempt to release a sufficient number of pilots to meet the ratio. It will not, however, be required to release more than 20 pilots per month if doing so would, in its judgment, create severe operational difficulties." End QUOTE.

    What I asked to be produced is the "preferential hiring agreement" that Nicolau directed the affected Parties to enter(negotiate). The "agreement", to be binding, should be a document signed by American Airlines, American Eagle Airlines, ALPA and the APA. Nicolau did not direct the terms of the "preferential hiring agreement", he merely directed the Parties to enter (negotiate) an Agreement.

    Be mindful of the fact that Nicolau said " will offer to 824 Eagle Captains, including Eagle Rights Captains. one out of every two new hire positions in a new hire class". He never said " one out of every two new hire positions PER NEW HIRE CLASS", he just said "a class" (see Letter 3. III. A. for comparison).

    Furthermore, bear in mind that the APA filed a cross-claim in Case 3:10-cv-02275-P claiming that Nicolau exceeded his jusrisdiction in directing the Parties to enter into the "824 preferential hiring agreement". I doubt the APA would have or will now reverse its legal position and sign a "824 preferential hiring agreement".

    To further complicate the issue, the "824 preferential hiring agreement" was an "addendum" to Letter 3 (Eagle Pilot Agreement) and Supplement W (AA Pilot Agreement). The AA Pilot Agreement has been rejected in the AA Bankruptcy.

    The question is, where is the signed legal document Arbitrator Nicolau directed the 4 Parties to enter/negotiate?

  9. #29
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    It was an AWARD! By an ARBITRATOR! Why do you try to make it something else? You LOST your ridiculous court case. You were wrong then and you're still wrong. Just stop trying to scare everyone with your spooky dark persona and your misrepresenting of the facts, nobody's buying it. Rant off

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    FYI the bar tab/snack tab was submitted for reimbursement but was NOT approved.

  11. #31
    Registered User downwind's Avatar
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    Really grim? How many guys said no thanks during the last round? These guys were to go over @ 4yr pay at least and many chose not to. I expect 90-95% of the other numbered guys will not go. Then, when AA starts to hire, the 824 group will be very junior. At least the numbered guys who said no thanks will not be offered a second chance and will have to apply to AA if they want to go.

  12. #32
    Registered User Grimreaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3holerr View Post
    It was an AWARD! By an ARBITRATOR! Why do you try to make it something else? You LOST your ridiculous court case. You were wrong then and you're still wrong. Just stop trying to scare everyone with your spooky dark persona and your misrepresenting of the facts, nobody's buying it. Rant off
    So you do have a signed Letter of Agreement between the 4 Parties bearing the signatures of a Principle Officer of American Airlines, American Eagle Airlines, the Air Line Pilots Association and the Allied Pilots Association? That is wonderful news for the 824 pilots. Can you post the signed Agreement on this forum. Thank You.

    My ridiculous Court Case, as you call it, is currently before the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, Case # 11-11098 Gavin Mackenzie et al v. Air Line Pilots Association International et al USDC No. 3:10-CV-2043 and is stayed due to the bankruptcy of American Airlines. The Appeals Court will hear the case as soon as AA exits bankruptcy. The lawsuit I filed was to protect the rights of the "flow-through" pilots under Letter 3/ Supplement W. I trust you are prepared to file a similar "ridiculous court case" when the "824 preferential hiring" pilots are withheld from "flowing-through" to American Airlines as were/are the Letter 3 pilots who actually held and are still holding an American Airlines seniority number. Do not rely on ALPA to protect the "824 preferential hiring" offers. ALPA will not support/defend the American Eagle pilots, or Eagle pilots, or the pilots of whatever the airline will be called next year, against the APA or American Airlines for that matter.

  13. #33
    Registered User KEITH STONE's Avatar
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    I feel the "award" is binding, however, the existence of an actual agreement is unknown to me. There may, in fact, be no agreement as of yet. I will definitely be looking into this. The worst time to find out your agreement has holes in it is when you're ready to exercise it.

    AE pilots were screwed big time the first time around, and I could see AA filling up large classes with street hires once again if our ducks aren't in a row. Being that many feel it is Priority 1 for our MEC to flow, perhaps this has already been taken care of?

  14. #34
    Registered User 3holerr's Avatar
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    Y E A H .......... Ok Gavin, that sounds awesome. Good luck with all that. I'm pretty sure everyone knows your lawsuit was dismissed, it is public information ya know? This is a rediculous conversation, it's already gone too far and I don't want to get banned again ( because I DO appreciate the factual information that people try to share here). I'm done with this thread, sorry if it got too personal Greg, but this subject and that person really get me going.

  15. #35
    Registered User Grimreaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by downwind View Post
    Really grim? How many guys said no thanks during the last round? These guys were to go over @ 4yr pay at least and many chose not to. I expect 90-95% of the other numbered guys will not go. Then, when AA starts to hire, the 824 group will be very junior. At least the numbered guys who said no thanks will not be offered a second chance and will have to apply to AA if they want to go.
    I presume when you say "Really grim" you are addressing me and not just saying that the situation is really grim. If your response was directed at me the answer is 52. Fifty two (52) of the 286 "flow-through" pilots declined to transfer to AA. Many of the 52 declined because they were advised that after the intial thirty five (35), the remainder of the "flow-through" pilots would only transfer to AA in 2012 and 2013 but they were required to make an "irrevocable choice" and sign a "hold-harmless" agreement if they wanted to transfer to AA. Remember the "flow-through" pilots were required to make this decision in June 2010 and were advised that transfer to AA would be in 2012 and 2013. AA was already in a precarious financial condition ($12 billion in debt and losing money every quarter).

    AA management tesified in the Nicolau Arbitration that AA would conduct no training in 2010 but immediately after Nicolau issued his Opinion and Award AA began once again placing TWA "new hire" pilots into AA "new hire classes" without adhering to the requirement of Letter 3 that "at least one (1) out of every two (2) new hire positions per new hire class" be offered to "flow-through" pilots. The "flow-through" pilots filed their "ridiculous court case", as 3Holer calls it, in October 2010, when it became evident that ALPA would not demand that AA/AE/APA comply with Letter 3 and place "flow-through" pilots in the new hire classes. Once the "ridiculous court case" was filed, the "flow-through" pilots were immediately issued AA "paper bids" and then scheduled to attend AA training classes from January through May 2011. One to two years earlier than the "flow-through" pilots were advised by ALPA and management they would be transferred to AA.

  16. #36
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    I did ask BS when they were recalling the TWA pilots (1500 that are the stapled) why more numbered eagle pilots were not going, he gave me some lame answer. I asked him point blank, are some of these pilots (TWA) considered new hires. His answer was yes. Then numbered pilots (EGL)should be in those classes. But he did not want to go forward with a grievance. Why I do not know.
    Look at it this way, that would have given all numbered pilots a chance to flow and would have opened at least 100 CA positions.
    Talking to guys I know with numbers I feel the company will be suprised how few will flow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    Do not look to hard when you arrive at home. There is no signed legal document that binds American Airlines and the APA to "flow-through" the 824. That is not by accident or oversight.
    From what I remember you are correct. The APA has no say in this. They are new hires so it doesn't matter what the APA has to say about it.
    This is binding arbitration from a judge not an agreement among the 4 parties.

  18. #38
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    Thank you!

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    Deleted. 9 10

  20. #40
    Registered User Grimreaper's Avatar
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    Arbitrator Nicolau ruled as follows "The AFFECTED PARTIES are DIRECTED to enter into a preferential hiring AGREEMENT ...."
    Do not skip the word AGREEMENT.

    ALL Arbitrator Nicolau BOUND the Parties to do was enter (NEGOTIATE) an AGREEMENT.

    Without a signed AGREEMENT the 824 "preferential hiring" offers have no enforceable legal standing. The "affected parties" could take 5 years to "enter into a preferential hiring agreement". Arbitrator Nicolau did not establish a date that the "preferential hiring AGREEMENT" had to be agreed to, he merely directed the "affected Parties" to enter into an AGREEMENT.

    The APA is one of the "AFFECTED Parties", without the APA "signature" there is no AGREEMENT by the "AFFECTED PARTIES".

    To put this matter to rest is very simple. Have ALPA produce the signed "824 Preferential Hiring AGREEMENT" and post it on this forum. A copy of the signed AGREEMENT could then be sent to Denise Lynn, AA Vice-President of Employee Relations, asking her to verify the authenticity of the AGREEMENT.

    Produce the signed AGREEMENT and I will concede and our argument will end.

    I presume we can all agree that the pilots within the 824 group are entitled to a signed copy of the AGREEMENT?

    To date, I cannot find a copy of an AGREEMENT signed by AMERICAN AIRLINES or the APA.

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