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Thread: New AA roposal

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreeFlyFreak View Post
    If they want me to accept this $hit sandwich here is what I want in return:

    A seniority number at AA today for anyone at Eagle who wants one,
    At some point that starts to become like printing money. The value goes down.

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    Quote Originally Posted by davie7ee View Post
    So let me get this right grim. You want an 824 pilot (which is pretty much every pilot at AE) to file a grievance based on a crystal ball that you are using to see into the future. Is that correct?
    IMHO Grim's concerns have merit. In the past management has creatively and unilaterally altered contractual stipulations and then used the "precedent" defense when challenged at a much later date. I think it should be ALPA that files a grievance against the 824 process that is not following the award. As it stands now, they could load more 824 pilots in the immediate future and slam the door during the hectic and always understaffed summer season to maintain stability at Eagle. The terms "aggregate" and "over time" also seem undefined and could mean just about anything.

    How about minimal flow now and making up for it in a few years when they feel staffing allows it ?

    Wouldn't that action meet a theoretical and undefined "aggregate over time" ?

    There's a thousand ways to stiff a pilot with ambiguous language, especially the clueless.

  3. #23
    Registered User Grimreaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by davie7ee View Post
    So let me get this right grim. You want an 824 pilot (which is pretty much every pilot at AE) to file a grievance based on a crystal ball that you are using to see into the future. Is that correct?
    It is not a crystal ball; it is the hindsight of history - the history of Letter 3.

    The following is what Kirby said in an interview with the Dallas Morning News.

    “What happened to these guys is the guys who are senior American Eagle pilots now, many of them were hired right before 9/11 with that expectation and it didn’t come to fruition. So they reasonably have skepticism about promises that these good things are going to happen to you in the future.

    “Trying to give them assurances about what the opportunities are in the future and really making Eagle a place where pilots come not because they plan to spend their career at Eagle but because they want to fly widebodies for American Airlines someday is the road map we’re trying to work through with them together to get to something.


    It was not the guys who got hired right before 911, it was the guys who were hired 10 years before 911 and who were given the assurances by AA, ALPA and AE management that Letter 3 would transfer every Eagle pilot (1900 pilots) to AA in 5 years. Just sign the 16-year agreement because what do you care, all you'all will be at AA in 5 years, was the ALPA and management spin. That is the history.

    Here we go again: Bend over now at Eagle and work for peanuts, because we will straighten you out and wipe you clean when you get to AA and fly a widebody.

    Same promise (going to AA) just different words.

    Furthermore, blaming 911 for the failure to issue AA seniority numbers and transfer the Letter 3 pilots to AA is a crock of crap. The grievances that were filed (FLO-0903 LaRocco and FLO-0108 Nicolau) were not grievances filed about 911, they were grievances filed because management violated Letter 3 and did not issue AA seniority numbers (154 pilots) and transfer Eagle pilots (286 pilots) to AA in accordance with Letter 3.

    Memo to Mr. Kirby: The American Eagle pilots appreciate your acknowledgement that the "flow-through" agreement did not work for the American Eagle pilots. To begin to rectify, as an initial step, management's failure to adhere to the "flow-through" agreement, the Eagle pilots suggest that American Eagle pilots, when transferring to AA, are assigned their American Eagle date of hire for pay purposes at AA. The TWA pilots, who never worked for AMR/AA/AE were assigned their TWA date of hire for pay purposes when transferred to AA from TWA LLC. End of Memo.
    Last edited by Grimreaper; 12-16-2013 at 10:41 AM.

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    So you would rather they meet the "aggregate" 50% by back loading the 824 rather than transfer them now? It seems to me by front loading the 50%, we get more movement in the near term for those at AE while those that flow get better seniority. If it is going to be evened out to a 50% rate, AA still has to hire a total of 1648 pilots in order to bring on the 824. Personally, I'd want to be as near to the front of that wave as I can get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA View Post
    So you would rather they meet the "aggregate" 50% by back loading the 824 rather than transfer them now? It seems to me by front loading the 50%, we get more movement in the near term for those at AE while those that flow get better seniority. If it is going to be evened out to a 50% rate, AA still has to hire a total of 1648 pilots in order to bring on the 824. Personally, I'd want to be as near to the front of that wave as I can get.
    Might be good for a relative few initially, but the trade-off is that this award provision then can be interpreted any way management sees fit. By not challenging the fact it is not being implemented exactly as described immeadiately, ALPA in essence agrees with managements method and thus interpretation. The flip side of that is management could instead add more street hires simply claiming future classes at some point will be all Eagle to meet the aggrigate over time resulting in the loss of seniority. If they stop hiring at any point, that leaves more Eagle pilots trapped at Eagle and history repeats itself.

    If they are allowed to interpret it one way unchallenged, they can then interpret it another way. All an arbitrator needs is wiggle room to act in the financial interest of big business and they will almost always favor management. It's a VERY slippery slope and that's why the concept of seeking ambiguous language is the most sought after by managements in negotiations and what SHOULD be the most avoided by labor. Sadly, for some reason, it rarely is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA View Post
    AA still has to hire a total of 1648 pilots in order to bring on the 824. Personally, I'd want to be as near to the front of that wave as I can get.
    EXACTLY!! I've done the math when the number pilots were flowing over. For a pilot with a DOH of 2007 with a flow rate at 100% would not get a chance to flow until approx 2020 with regards to mandatory retirement. Now double that with 50% rate. Yeah. Not cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Highflyer1980 View Post
    EXACTLY!! I've done the math when the number pilots were flowing over. For a pilot with a DOH of 2007 with a flow rate at 100% would not get a chance to flow until approx 2020 with regards to mandatory retirement. Now double that with 50% rate. Yeah. Not cool.
    What part of having a precedent set are you not understanding. Allowing the award to be interpreted however AA chooses, even if it initially helps you/us can potentially bite us in the ass. Precedent counts for a lot in court and mediation. I'm all for getting us over there as fast as we can, but when the potential to backfire and completely freeze the flow is an outcome of doing so, you may want to think twice.

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    right after they vote yes again they will have plenty of time to think about it here at eagle

  9. #29
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    What makes you think that I thought AA would honor such an agreement? My point is that clearly a 50% rate flow through is not going to solve the longevity issue at AE. Clearly AA is going for a sucker punch here.

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    i was speaking in general terms, not pointing at anyone specific.

    they see movement now but they have no idea how fast the door slams after you have an agreement that is open to interpretation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    i was speaking in general terms, not pointing at anyone specific.

    they see movement now but they have no idea how fast the door slams after you have an agreement that is open to interpretation.
    Absolutely. So, even if they honor this agreement for which it is intended (which is unclear), it only does good for the first half of the seniority list. The folks who can get out sooner and escape this luxury we have.

    In other words, it's poo. Nothing solid, nothing promising, just take your 12 year pay and like it.

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    Seeing/hearing a lot of "shut it down" type attitudes lately. Not condemning or supporting this viewpoint, just a question out of curiosity for those who feel this way: have you thought of what you plan to do for employment once they "shut it down" here at EGL? And if you have, what do you plan to do (ie leave aviation, go to another regional, wait and hope a major hires you, etc)?

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    Go back to school and get a degree in computers. And if majors hire me, fine.

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    By the time they shut us down, a vast majority of us will be long gone. I don't intend on being at Eagle in 2015. Consider it my New Years resolution!

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    Got it right!


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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post
    It is not a crystal ball; it is the hindsight of history - the history of Letter 3.

    The following is what Kirby said in an interview with the Dallas Morning News.

    ?What happened to these guys is the guys who are senior American Eagle pilots now, many of them were hired right before 9/11 with that expectation and it didn?t come to fruition. So they reasonably have skepticism about promises that these good things are going to happen to you in the future.

    ?Trying to give them assurances about what the opportunities are in the future and really making Eagle a place where pilots come not because they plan to spend their career at Eagle but because they want to fly widebodies for American Airlines someday is the road map we?re trying to work through with them together to get to something.


    It was not the guys who got hired right before 911, it was the guys who were hired 10 years before 911 and who were given the assurances by AA, ALPA and AE management that Letter 3 would transfer every Eagle pilot (1900 pilots) to AA in 5 years. Just sign the 16-year agreement because what do you care, all you'all will be at AA in 5 years, was the ALPA and management spin. That is the history.

    Here we go again: Bend over now at Eagle and work for peanuts, because we will straighten you out and wipe you clean when you get to AA and fly a widebody.

    Same promise (going to AA) just different words.

    Furthermore, blaming 911 for the failure to issue AA seniority numbers and transfer the Letter 3 pilots to AA is a crock of crap. The grievances that were filed (FLO-0903 LaRocco and FLO-0108 Nicolau) were not grievances filed about 911, they were grievances filed because management violated Letter 3 and did not issue AA seniority numbers (154 pilots) and transfer Eagle pilots (286 pilots) to AA in accordance with Letter 3.

    Memo to Mr. Kirby: The American Eagle pilots appreciate your acknowledgement that the "flow-through" agreement did not work for the American Eagle pilots. To begin to rectify, as an initial step, management's failure to adhere to the "flow-through" agreement, the Eagle pilots suggest that American Eagle pilots, when transferring to AA, are assigned their American Eagle date of hire for pay purposes at AA. The TWA pilots, who never worked for AMR/AA/AE were assigned their TWA date of hire for pay purposes when transferred to AA from TWA LLC. End of Memo.

    Let's learn from the past! This guy has it right... Also, captains at eagle were locked in the jet for 2 years before allowed to flow to AA. AA promised they didn't need to hire many pilots. We signed the 16 year contract and Blamo, AA interviewed and hired over 1000 pilots during that 2 year seat lock!!!!

    I'm sorry, but it's always a game to them instead of just stepping up to the promises .... I hope this new group of management does a better job.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClimbMode View Post
    Seeing/hearing a lot of "shut it down" type attitudes lately. Not condemning or supporting this viewpoint, just a question out of curiosity for those who feel this way: have you thought of what you plan to do for employment once they "shut it down" here at EGL? And if you have, what do you plan to do (ie leave aviation, go to another regional, wait and hope a major hires you, etc)?
    I'm not a shut it down guy, Just no more concessions.... Also, we have an 8 year contract now that furlough protects. In 8 years most of the seniors guys will be close to retirement and hopefully most of the young guys will be at the majors... Now if you tell me "Our new contract isn't that rock solid". THAN WHAT THE HECK SAYS ANY NEW CONTRACT IS SOLID with more and new concessions.... It's a game of who blinks first- can we all just relax and let the cards show themselves... It will work out without concessions!!

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClimbMode View Post
    Seeing/hearing a lot of "shut it down" type attitudes lately. Not condemning or supporting this viewpoint, just a question out of curiosity for those who feel this way: have you thought of what you plan to do for employment once they "shut it down" here at EGL? And if you have, what do you plan to do (ie leave aviation, go to another regional, wait and hope a major hires you, etc)?
    Well I plan to move into OBAMA world. Welfare, they pay for rent, heat, electricity, telephone, cell phone, cable, car, car insurance, health insurance and college for the kids. Why do I care if eagle shuts down today or tomorrow. As long as there are Democrats in office I am golden.

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    But the E175 is such a cool looking airplane. Its got engines under the wings. Its like a little airbus. Heck Ill fly it for free!!!!

    (sarcasm)

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    They aren't gonna get this done without a stapler this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ClimbMode View Post
    Seeing/hearing a lot of "shut it down" type attitudes lately. Not condemning or supporting this viewpoint, just a question out of curiosity for those who feel this way: have you thought of what you plan to do for employment once they "shut it down" here at EGL? And if you have, what do you plan to do (ie leave aviation, go to another regional, wait and hope a major hires you, etc)?

    I'm a Senior Fo I take home 2500 a month after deductions


    Unemployment =1600 dollars a month


    If we give up any more I might as well be unemployed. I could easily shovel snow/mow lawns under the table and not miss out on a penny.


    I can't believe how easily scared some of you guys get, the entire idea for management is to incite fear in negotiations. There needs to be some required reading for everyone, starting with "Confessions of a Union Buster"


    Why in the world did we negotiate furlough protection if we were going to attempt re-negotiate a fleet plan. In all seriousness they can keep the planes, we should not even be participating in this negotiation, we've already done our part.


    At the same time everyone is so concerned about metering, you are also worried about getting a fleet plan. Do you realize the irony? We are not going to be able to staff all those planes and they will have to meter eagle because of it. So you are going to give more concessions... only to be further metered in the future. Want Increased flow? Wait until we shrink and the furlough protection kicks in and they have to start paying people to stay at home, we will be getting 100% of AA classes without even asking for it.


    Guys Grow some balls, please.


    Worst case scenario they shut us down, then guess what it's time to get your logbook up to date and move on. AA is not the only game in town, if you can afford first year pay there, then you can afford a year of unemployment.

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