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Thread: New AA roposal

  1. #161
    Registered User RIGHTWINGMAN's Avatar
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    Corrupt I think is the key word

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    Spot on Grim. I wish you were in the room for that management meeting.

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    Registered User Nemesis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimreaper View Post

    The MEC did not meet with management, Sprague briefed the MEC after meeting with management.

    Why are the names of the people in the room, when management handed down its latest list of demands, being kept confidential?
    I see that Cujo never answered this question....

    Why is he refusing to divulge the names of the people at the meeting that he was not allowed to attend?

    Is he embarrassed that he was given a directive not to attend by Sprague when, in point of fact, Sprague and ALPA staff work for him?

    Was Cujo ordered to keep the names confidential from the pilots?

    Or does he simply not KNOW the names of the participants discussing vital matters on his behalf?

    Perhaps he thinks it not important that he was locked out....

    The answer is important to many, and will give a very accurate indicator of how weak and subservient this new MEC is.

  4. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nemesis View Post
    I see that Cujo never answered this question....

    Why is he refusing to divulge the names of the people at the meeting that he was not allowed to attend?

    Is he embarrassed that he was given a directive not to attend by Sprague when, in point of fact, Sprague and ALPA staff work for him?

    Was Cujo ordered to keep the names confidential from the pilots?

    Or does he simply not KNOW the names of the participants discussing vital matters on his behalf?

    Perhaps he thinks it not important that he was locked out....

    The answer is important to many, and will give a very accurate indicator of how weak and subservient this new MEC is.
    That's been the M.O. of management for decades. When a new "leadership" is elected, a common tactic is to make them feel privileged and special. Essentially, it's a method of dividing the group to conquer it by seperating the leadership from the membership. Many a leadership has fallen for this tactic and believed they were indeed special. Sometimes it occurs quickly and to others it happens over time. Sounds like history may be repeating itself and if so, boy that didn't take long.

    Once they poison the leadership with privilege and secrecy (usually supplanted with special treatment and perks like "SUP" status), it's all but over and forward to the past, it is.

  5. #165
    Registered User Grimreaper's Avatar
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    On December 12, 2012, Bankruptcy Court Judge Lane signed the Order (Dkt 5844 12/12/12) approving the concessionary bankruptcy Eagle Pilot Collective Bargaining Agreement (CBA).

    ORDERED that the New CBA and all of its terms and provisions thereof are hereby approved in their entirety, and the Debtors are authorized to enter into such agreements and perform all their obligations thereunder and to take such actions as may be necessary in connection with or in furtherance thereof; and it is further….

    ORDERED that this Court shall retain jurisdiction to hear and determine all matters arising from the interpretation and/or implementation of this Order.


    When did Parker enter the scene? March 2013. The Motion seeking court approval to merge AA and US Airways was filed in Bankruptcy Court March 6th. (Dkt 6992 3/6/13).

    Three (3) months after the 8-year Agreement was signed by Judge Lane.

    Parker does not like the 8-year Agreement; he likes the PSA Agreement, with downward pinnacle adjustments.

    So, how does he get rid of the 8-Year Agreement?

    Get ALPA National to agree to flush it down the toilet. Problem is how do you get the Eagle pilots to agree to flush the 8-Year Agreement down the toilet?

    Threaten to shut Eagle down and use a weak, spineless and timid MEC to be the messenger boys who deliver the message to the pilots.

    Below are the brief answers to questions from an associate who is an industry analyst.

    The CRJ aircraft will be transferred to PSA – common equipment.
    Eagle will become a 60 E175 aircraft fleet airline – common equipment again.
    Regional feeders will be kept to a size that would not significantly impact feed operations in event of "operational problems".
    Job protections, such as furlough protection and scope will be non-existent. Without company owned aircraft scope is irrelevant.
    The current wholly-owned regionals will be separated as distinct entities and their low cost structure will be used to secure “equivalent cost capacity-purchase agreements” from other regional aircraft operators.

    The following is the answer to a question regarding the pilot post-merger scenario at AA.

    Pilot hiring will stop. There will be a brief “plateau” in pilot numbers as consolidation takes effect. Depending on “right-sizing” the airline, retirements, attrition and “operational synergies and efficiencies”, such as PBS, a furlough at AA is very likely before hiring resumes.

    His closing comment was "the offer from your management is designed to benefit the corporation, not the pilots. It is not meant to benefit the pilots. Pilot action or non-action is immaterial to the business plan
    Last edited by Grimreaper; 12-24-2013 at 04:36 PM.

  6. #166
    Registered User Stickshaker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beagleboy View Post
    IMHO Grim's concerns have merit. In the past management has creatively and unilaterally altered contractual stipulations and then used the "precedent" defense when challenged at a much later date. I think it should be ALPA that files a grievance against the 824 process that is not following the award. As it stands now, they could load more 824 pilots in the immediate future and slam the door during the hectic and always understaffed summer season to maintain stability at Eagle. The terms "aggregate" and "over time" also seem undefined and could mean just about anything.

    How about minimal flow now and making up for it in a few years when they feel staffing allows it ?

    Wouldn't that action meet a theoretical and undefined "aggregate over time" ?

    There's a thousand ways to stiff a pilot with ambiguous language, especially the clueless.
    Grim is a troll and intentionally left off the other part of that page that states a minimum of 20 per month when there is a class with new hires.
    1.
    2.
    Following the offer of recall to the most junior furloughed pilot on the American Airlines' pilot seniority list, and beginning with the first class ofadditional pilots (not currently on the American Airlines Pilot Seniority List) subsequent to the offer of recall to the most junior pilot on furlough from American Airlines, A A will offer to Eagle pilots 50% o f the pilot positions (net o f any A A pilots returning from deferred furlough status) in that class, and each subsequent class, until 824 Eagle pilots have been hired at AA.
    a. It is the intent ofthe parties that this agreement shall not in any respect diminish or otherwise impact the pre-existing rights and privileges o f pilots already employed by AA pursuant to the applicable collective bargaining agreement, including recall rights for furloughed pilots on the AA System Seniority List.
    b. The intent o f this agreement is to provide 50% o f the A A new hire training slots to 824 AE pilots in such a way that the AE operation is not disrupted.
    c. As such, AE management will release no fewer than 20 AE pilots per month in a month in which AA is entering new hire pilots into training, in an effort to meet the 50%. If AE management determines that they can release more than 20 pilots in any given month, they will do so.
    d. Because AA's hiring requirements may exceed 40 per month in any given month then drop below 40 in subsequent months, it is possible and even likely that AE will not achieve 50% ofthe new hire training slots. Therefore AA will make its best efforts to offer and Eagle will make its best efforts to release additional Captains, up to 100% ofeach class until the 50% ratio is achieved, in aggregate, based on the total number ofnew hire positions in aggregate over time.

  7. #167
    Registered User Grimreaper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stickshaker View Post
    Grim is a troll and intentionally left off the other part of that page that states a minimum of 20 per month when there is a class with new hires.
    This is what Letter 3.III.A required:

    At least one (1) out of every two (2) new hire positions per new hire class
    at AA
    will be offered to CJ Captains who are line pilots and who have
    completed their IOE at AMR Eagle, Inc.


    It did not take management long to violate Letter 3. AA hired, including the TWA pilots, approximately 5000 pilots and less than 500 Eagle pilots have transferred to AA.

    Even when Nicolau stated that Letter 3 had been breached (violated) in 2007 when the 244 Eagle pilots were withheld from transferring to AA, he, Nicolau, did not correct the breach in 2010 (3 years later). In fact, he further harmed the 244 pilots by only allowing 35 pilots to transfer to AA immediately and he left the remainder of the 244 to transfer to AA in 2012 and 2013 at management's discretion.

    You think that the 824 Agreement with the cover/front pages missing is going to protect you because it says Eagle must release a minimum of 20 pilots. Where does it say AA must accept the 20 pilots Eagle has released?

    You are in for a big surprise if you believe that management will honor an agreement it does not like. I may be a troll but I am an experienced troll.

    Furthermore, currently the Eagle pilots have a weak 824 Letter of Agreement and a weak union, give up the 8-Year bankruptcy Agreement and your 824 Letter of Agreement will be as worthless as used charmin paper.

  8. #168
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    I'm hearing people say things like "I don't see what's so bad about the new terms" and "I've got too much invested here to go somewhere else". The stupidity and fear is alive and well. These are the people that will throw us under the bus and we'll end up working for much less than we're worth because some guy with 15 years is scared to lose his job. This is the type of thinking we have to combat.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Go Pound Sand View Post
    I'm hearing people say things like "I don't see what's so bad about the new terms" and "I've got too much invested here to go somewhere else". The stupidity and fear is alive and well. These are the people that will throw us under the bus and we'll end up working for much less than we're worth because some guy with 15 years is scared to lose his job. This is the type of thinking we have to combat.
    please slap them hard and kick them in the nuts, if they still have some. then try to talk some sense into them, we all need to share our thoughts and hope that the 75% will see the light this time around..

  10. #170
    Registered User ardvark's Avatar
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    not until they are displaced from ord would they wake up and that wont be until after they vote again yes. I have a 75% chance of being correct.
    Last edited by ardvark; 12-27-2013 at 08:13 PM.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by ardvark View Post
    not until they are displaced from ord would they wake up and that wont be until after they vote again yes. I have a 75% chance of being corret.
    Three things are for sure....death, taxes, and displacement from ORD

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